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Robert A Monroe has been a pioneer in exploring out觔f負he
body experiences, and Journeys OUT OF THE BODY, his first
book, has become the undisputed classic in the field. He had
a long and distinguished career in the broadcasting
industry, as a writer, director of programs, and creator and
producer of some four hundred radio and TV network programs,
and eventually as owner and operator of a radio network and
cable TV system in Virginia. He is the founder and executive
director of the Monroe Institute, interna. tionally known
for its work on the effects of sound wave forms on human
behavior.
Robert Monroe's second book, Far Journeys, tells the story
of his research and development of the OOB experience and
further explorations beyond time and space. It was published
by Doubleday in 1985.
Mr. Monroe plays an active part in the work of the Monroe
Institute and lives with his family in the foothills of the
Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia.
ROBERT A. MONROE
Updated

DOUBLEDAY
NEW YORK LONDON TORONTO SYDNEY AUCKLAND
A MAIN STREET BOOK
PUBLISHED BY DOUBLEDAY
a division of Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, Inc.
1540 Broadway New York, New York 10036
MAIN STREET BOOKS, DOUBLEDAY, and the portrayal of a
building with a tree are trademarks of Doubleday, a
division of Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, Inc.
Journeys Out of the Body was originally published in hardcover
by Doubleday in 1971, and in paperback by Anchor Books in 1977.
ISBN 0850861
Copyright 1971, 1977 by Robert A. Monroe
All Rights Reserved
Printed in the United States of America
32 34 36 38 40 39 37 35 33 31

CONTENTS
Foreword Introduction
1. Not with a Wand, nor Lightly
2. Search and Research
3. On the Evidence
4. 'Die Here胤ow
5. Infinity, Eternity
6. Reverse Image
7. Post Mortem
8. " 'Cause the Bible Tells Me So"
9. Angels and Archetypes
10. Intelligent Animals
11. Gift or Burden?
12. Round Holes and Square Pegs
13. The Second Body
14. Mind and Supermind
15. Sexuality in the Second State
16. Preliminary Exercises
17. The Separation Process
18. Analysis of Events
19. Statistical Classification
20. Inconclusive
21. Premises: A Rationale?
Epilogue: Personality Profile

FOREWORD
Much has taken place both in the world and in my personal life since the
final manuscript days prior to the publication of JOURNEYS OUT OF THE
BODY.
It was an interesting experience, to say the least, when I publicly
became a member of a highly suspect group labeled Psychic, Sensitive,
Freak, and, more generously, Parapsycholo茆ist The publication of the
book quite thoroughly "blew my cover" as a reasonably orthodox business
executive.
However, a good many of the results were totally unexpected, and some of
the serious trepidations were unfounded. For example, the fact that I
was (and still am) well grounded and active in the material world of
business helped greatly in the serious consideration of the book
material.
Another facet: I should have had more faith and confidence in the
business mind as I know it. I had always maintained that business and
industry respected "something of value" without particular regard to its
origin. If it works, use it. Still, I was greatly concerned about the
reaction to the book of the board of directors of the corporation of
which I was president. (Who would want such an unstable person running
their multi衫illion dollar operationl) At the first board meeting in
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, after the book publication, no one
mentioned it. Nor did I. However, as we cruised up the canal in the
board chairman's yacht, on our way to dinner at the country club, the
chairman's wife came up from below deck with a copy of JOURNEYS in her
hand,
"Bob, will you autograph this for me?" she asked. I complied, more than
a little self苞onscious and surprised. I should not have been.
"Interesting stuff," the chairman called over his shoulder as he steered
for the yacht club dock. "My wife is a real psychic. I never make a
major business deal without a reading from her. It works, too."
Needless to say, I was not asked to resign. Actually, I found little or
no adverse effect on my business relationships as a result of the public
disclosure of this "private" side of my life. Instead, many broad new
avenues opened up to me, totally unexpected. Who could have guessed that
I would speak on out觔f苑ody experiences at such an august and
conservative body as the Smithsonian Institution! It actually happened.
Another miscalculation, or so it would seem: it has been stated that
JOURNEYS was a book ahead of its time, that serious interest in the type
of material it contains is only now reaching significant levels. This
may have been true, yet what was it that precipitated such changes in a
mere four years? I like to think a chicken觔r負he苟gg question is
appropriate, that this book was and is part of a trigger or catalytic
process that is now in chain reaction. This process states simply; it's
O.K. to have strange experiences, to consider seriously as natural those
events and activities beyond the present ability of our physical
sciences to replicate or measure. Existence beyond death is one of
these.
Another decision made about the time of publication: that my conscious
mind or self had insufficient experience and/or training to control in
toto the scope of such non計hysical exploration. This was brought about
first by the boredom and impatience of here負o負here苔nd苑ack tests in
our physical
world. Who wants repeatedly to take an hour dressing in preparation
(wire up to instruments, develop a careful separative state) just to go
from bedroom to kitchen (Virginia to California or Kansas). Second, many
explanations were taking place far beyond my conscious understanding and
control 趴hich inferred that the physical, conscious "I" actually had
very limited ideas as to where to go and what to do.

Thus I made an important decision. For the most part, I would set up the
conscious out觔f苑ody state, then turn the action over to my total self
(soul?). My present consciousness would go along for the ride, as a part
of the whole. The results have been: ecstatic, illuminating, confusing,
awe虹nspiring, humbling, reassuring苟xperience and exploration far
beyond my ability to conceive of, most of it an apparent educational
program that I am absorbing bit by bit. The problem as I sense it is
simple. Eventually, a quantum jump in consciousness will be required to
reduce the material to a practical "something of value" level.
What does this mean? Does that great consciousness change take place
while still alive physically? Or in another reality, later? Who are the
instructors, the helpers?
Precisely bit by bit, we are beginning to approach the answers in our
research at the Institute. Yes, a research facility was formed and
became active in 1972.
Our work has attracted the interest and co觔peration of physicists,
psychologists, biochemists, engineers, educators, psychiatrists,
corporate presidents, statisticians, many of whom serve on our board of
advisers. Among the eleven thousand plus pieces of mail received to
date, many sighs of relief were reported. The secret could be talked
about without the need for sanity hearings. Thus the book is serving its
primary purpose.
Over seven hundred persons have participated in our research and
experimental training program. Our first Explorer Team has six members.
Some fifty more are waiting for our facility to handle their final
indoctrination, and their number is growing daily. We hope to be able to
expand shortly in physical space, equipment, and personnel so that we
can absorb the backlog and the increase. This year, training programs at
the Institute may qualify for credit at the college and university
level.
Meanwhile, our Explorer Team of six is bringing back data faster than we
can process it, far more rapidly and diverse than I alone could
accumulate. That which we have sorted is overwhelming in its import. The
fact of consensus and agreement from six different explorers苟ach
unaware of the other's experiences except in joint operations虐as had a
formidable impact upon those who have examined the material. The details
will be reported in another book which is in preparation.
A lot of action to pack into four years. It only strengthens the concept
of accelerated change at work苟specially the change in human needs.
I have reviewed JOURNEYS again carefully for this new edition. I'm happy
to say that nothing has to be altered in the light of later experience.
The basics are still the same. From the point of my experimental level
at that time, it is still accurate. One item we do know: the reality of
your reading these words with your left brain hemisphere is the first
stage of filtration.
Robert A. Monroe Afton, Virginia 1977
For those interested in the activities of the Institute or who have had
spontaneous out觔f負he苑ody experiences, write:
Monroe Institute of Applied Sciences
P.O. Box 57
Afton, Virginia 22920

INTRODUCTION
In our action觔riented society, when a man lies down to sleep, he is
effectively out of the picture. He will lie still for six to eight
hours, so he is not "behaving," "thinking productively," or doing
anything "significant." We all know that people dream, but we raise our
children to regard dreams and other experiences occurring during sleep
as unimportant, as not red in the way that the events of the day are.
Thus most people are in the habit of forgetting their dreams, and, on
the occasions when they do remember them, they usually regard them as
mere oddities.
It is true that psychologists and psychiatrists regard the dreams of
patients as useful clues to the malfunctioning of their personalities;
but even in this application dreams and other nocturnal experiences are
generally not treated as red in any sense, but only as some sort of
internal data processing of the human computer.
There are some important exceptions to this general put苓own of dreams,
but for the vast majority of people in our society today, dreams are not
things that serious people concern themselves with.
What are we to make of a person who takes exception to this general
belief, who claims to have had experiences during sleep or other forms
of unconsciousness that were not only impressive to him, but which he
feels were real?
Suppose this person claims that on the previous night he had an
experience of flying through the air over a large city which he soon
recognized as New York. Further, he tells us that not only was this
"dream" intensely vivid, but that he knew at the time that it was not a
dream, that he was really in the air over New York City. And this
conviction that he was redly there sticks with him for the rest of his
life, despite our reminding him that a sleeping man couldn't really be
fiying by himself in the air over New York City.
Probably we will ignore a person who makes such a report, or we will
politely (or not so politely) inform him that he is becoming a little
weak in the head or crazy, and suggest that he see a psychotherapist. If
he is insistent about the reality of his experience, especially if he
has other strange experiences too, we may with the best of intentions
see about committing him to a mental hospital.
Our "traveler," on the other hand, if he is smart, will quickly learn
not to talk about his experiences. The only problem with that, as I have
found from talking to many such people, is that he may worry about
whether he's going crazy.
For the sake of argument, let's make our "traveler" even more troubling.
Suppose in his account he goes on to say that after flying over New York
City for a while he flew down to your apartment. There he saw you and
two other people, unknown to him, conversing. He describes the two
people in detail, and mentions a few things about the topic of conver
sation occurring in the minute or so he was there.
Let's suppose he is correct. At the time he had his experience, you were
holding a conversation on the topic he mentions with two people who fit
our "traveler's" descriptions. What do we make of things now?
The usual reaction to a hypothetical situation of this type is that it
is all very interesting, but as we know that it couldn't possibly
happen, we needn't seriously think about what it might mean. Or we might
comfort ourselves by invoking the word "coincidence." A marvelous word,
"coincidence," for relieving mental upsetsl
Unfortunately for our peace of mind, there are thousands of instances,
reported by normal people, of exactly this sort of occurrence. We are
not dealing with a purely hypothetical situation.
Such events have been termed traveling clairvoyance, astral projection,
or, a more scientific term, out觔f負he苑ody experiences (OOBEs). We can
formally define an OOBE as an event in which the experiencer (i) seems

to perceive some portion of some environment which could not possibly be
perceived from where his physical body is known to be at the time; and
(2) knows at the time that he is not dreaming or fantasizing. The
experiencer seems to possess his normal consciousness at the time, and
even though he may reason that this cannot be happening, he will feel
all his normal critical faculties to be present, and so knows he is not
dreaming. Further, he will not decide after awakening that this was a
dream. How, then, do we understand this strange phenomenon?
If we look to scientific sources for information about OOBEs we shall
find practically none at all. Scientists have, by and large, simply not
paid any attention to these phenomena. The situation is rather similar
to that of the scientific literature on extrasensory perception (ESP).
Phenomena such as telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, and psycho
kinesis are "impossible" in terms of the current physical world view.
Since they can't happen, most scientists do not bother to read the
evidence indicating that they do happen; hence, not having read the
evidence, their belief in the impossibility of such phenomena is
reinforced. This kind of circular reasoning in support of one's
comfortable belief systern is not unique to scientists by any means, but
it has resulted in very little scientific research on ESP or OOBEs.
In spite of the lack of "hard" scientific dfcta, there are still a
number of definite conclusions one can make from reading what material
there is.
First, OOBEs are a universal human experience, not in the sense that
they happen to large numbers of people, but in that they have happened
all through recorded history, and there are marked similarities in the
experience among people who are otherwise extremely different in terms
of cultural background. One can find reports of OOBEs by housewives in
Kansas which closely resemble accounts of OOBEs from ancient Egyptian or
oriental sources.
Second, the OOBE is generally a once虹n苔衍ifetime experience, seemingly
experienced by "accident." Illnesses sometimes bring it about,
especially illnesses which are almost fatal. Great emotional stress
sometimes brings it about. In many cases, it simply happens during sleep
without our having any idea of what might have caused it. In very rare
instances it seems to have been brought about by a deliberate attempt.
Third, the experience of an OOBE is usually one of the most profound
experiences of a person's life, and radically alters his beliefs. This
is usually expressed as, "I no longer believe in survival of death or an
immortal soul, I know that I will survive death." The person feels that
he has directly experienced being alive and conscious without his
physical body, and therefore knows that he possesses some kind of soul
that will survive bodily death. This does not logically follow, for even
if the OOBE is more than just an interesting dream or hallucination, it
was still occurring while the physical body was alive and functioning
and therefore may depend on the physical body. This argument, however,
makes no impression on those who have actually had an OOBE. Thus
regardless of what position one wants to take on the "reality" of the
OOBE, it is clearly an experience deserving considerable psychological
study. I am certain that our ideas concerning the existence of souls
have resulted from early experiences of people having OOBEs. Considering
the importance of the idea of the soul to most of our religions, and the
importance of religion in people's lives, it seems incredible that
science could have swept this problem under the rug so easily.
Fourth, the OOBE is generally extremely joyful to those who have it. I
would make a rough estimate that between 90 and 95 per cent of the
people who have this experience are very glad it occurred and find it
joyful, while 5 per cent are very frightened by it, for the only way
they can interpret it, while it is happening, is that they are dying.
Later reactions of the person as he attempts to interpret his OOBE can

be rather negative, however. Almost every time I give a speech on this
subject, someone comes up to me afterward and thanks me for talking
about it They had had the experience some time before, but had no way of
explaining it, and worried that they were going "crazy."
Fifth, in some instances of OOBEs the description of what was happening
at a distant place is correct and more accurate than we would expect by
coincidence. Not the majority, by any means, but some. To explain these
we must postulate either that the "hallucinatory" experience of the OOBE
was combined with the operation of ESP, or that in some sense the person
really was "there." The OOBE then becomes very real indeed.
The fact that most of our knowledge about OOBEs comes from reports of
once虹n苔衍ifetime experiences puts us at two serious disadvantages. The
first of these is that most people cannot produce an OOBE at will, so
this precludes the possibility of studying them under precise laboratory
conditions. The second disadvantage is that when a person is suddenly
thrust for a brief period of time into a very novel environment he may
not be a very good observer. He is too excited and too busy trying to
cope with the strangeness of it. Thus our reports from the once虹n苔
lifetime people are very rough. It would be of great advantage in
studying OOBEs to have trained "travelers" available who could produce
the experience at will and who generally had the characteristics of a
good reporter.
The book you are about to read is very rare. It is a firsthand account
of hundreds of OOBEs by a person who is, I believe, a good reporter.
Nothing like it has been published in many years.
Robert A, Monroe is a successful businessman who began experiencing
OOBEs quite unexpectedly over a decade ago. Coming from an academic
family and having more than the average intellectual training, he
realized the unusualness of these experiences and began taking
systematic notes from the beginning. I shall not say more about his
experiences per se; his accounts in the rest of this book are too
fascinating and lucid to warrant further introduction here. Instead, I
shall note the qualities he possesses that make him a good reporter, and
which give me a good deal of confidence in his accounts.
When most people have a profound experience, especially one with
religious import, careful questioning will usually reveal that their
original account of it was not so much an account of what happened as of
what they thought it meant. As an example, let us suppose that what
really happens to a person is that he finds himself floating in the air
above his body, in the middle of the night; while still surprised at
this, he perceives a shadowy, dim figure at the end of the room, and
then a blue circle of light floats past the figure from left to right.
Then our experiencer loses consciousness and wakes up to find himself in
his body. A good reporter will describe essentially that scene. Many
people will say, in perfectly good faith, something like, "My immortal
soul was raised from the tomb of my body by the grace of God last night,
and an angel appeared. As a symbol of God's favor, the angel showed me a
symbol of wholeness'
I have often seen distortions this great when I've been able to question
an individual about exactly what happened, but most of the published
accounts of OOBEs have not been subjected to this kind of questioning.
The statements that God's will caused the OOBE, that the dim figure
turned into an angel, that the blue circle was a symbol of wholeness are
all things that are part of a person's interpretation, not his
experience. Most people are not aware of the extent to which their mind
automatically interprets things. They think they are perceiving things
as they are.
Robert Monroe is unique among the small number of people who have
written about repeated OOBEs, in that he recognizes the extent to which
his mind tries to interpret his experiences, to force them into familiar

patterns. Thus his accounts are particularly valuable, for he works very
hard to try to "tell it like it is."
The initial series of laboratory studies we were able to do occurred
over a period of several months between September 1965 and August 1966,
while I was able to use the facilities of the Electroencephalographic
(brain wave) Laboratory of the University of Virginia Medical School.
On eight occasions Mr. Monroe was asked to try to produce an OOBE while
hooked up to various instruments for measuring physiological functions.
He was also asked to try to direct his movements during the OOBE into
the adjoining room, both to observe the activity of the technician moni
toring the recording equipment and to try to read a five苓igit random
target number, which was placed on a shelf six feet above the floor.
Measurements were made of Mr. Monroe's brain waves (the
electroencephalogram), eye movements, and heart rate (the
electrocardiogram).
The laboratory was, unfortunately, not very comfortable for lying still
for prolonged periods; we had to bring an army cot into the recording
room, as there was no bed there. One of the connections for recording
brain waves, the ear electrode, was of a clip type that caused some
irritation to the ear, and this made relaxation somewhat difficult.
On the first seven nights during which he attempted to produce an OOBE,
Mr. Monroe was not successful. On his eighth night he was able to
produce two very brief OOBEs, and these are described in some detail in
his own words on pp. 602. The first brief OOBE involved witnessing
some unrecognized people talking at an unknown location, so there was no
way of checking whether it was "fantasy" or a real perception of events
happening at a distance. In the second brief OOBE, Mr. Monroe reported
he couldn't control his movements very well, so he did not report on the
target number in the adjacent room. He did correctly describe that the
laboratory technician was out of the room, and that a man (later
identified as her husband) was with her in a corridor. As a
parapsychologist, I cannot say that this "proves" that Mr. Monroe really
knew what was happening at a distance: it is hard to assess the
improbability of such an event occurring after the fact. Nevertheless, I
found this result quite encouraging for one of the initial attempts to
bring such an unusual phenomenon into the laboratory'.
My next opportunity to work with Mr. Monroe in the laboratory came when
he visited me in California during the summer of 1968. We were able to
have a single laboratory session under much more comfortable
circumstances: a normal bed was available, rather than a cot, and we
used a different type of electrode for measuring brain waves which was
not physically uncomfortable. Under these conditions, Mr. Monroe was
able to produce two brief OOBEs,
He awoke almost immediately after the first OOBE had ended, and
estimated that it had lasted eight to ten seconds. The brain趴ave record
just before he awoke again showed a Stage 1 pattern, with possibly a
single rapid eye movement occurring during that time. His blood pressure
showed a sudden drop, a steady low lasting eight seconds, and a sudden
resurgence to normal.
In terms of Mr. Monoe's experience (see his description of this
technique on p. 70), he reported that he "rolled out" of his body, found
himself in the hallway separating his room from the recording room for a
few seconds, and then felt a need to get back into his body because of a
difficulty in breathing. An assistant, Joan Crawford, and I had been
watching him on a closed苞ircuit television set during this time and we
saw him move his arm slightly away from his throat just before he awoke
and reported.
Mr. Monroe tried again to produce another OOBE that would be evidential
in terms of ESP, coming over and seeing the recording room and reading a
target number on a shelf in that room. His brain趴ave pattern showed

much light sleep, so after three quarters of an hour, I called out to
him over the intercom to remind him that we wanted him to try to produce
an OOBE. A while later, he reported having produced an OOBE, but being
unsure of his orientation, he followed a wire which he thought led to
the recording room, and instead found himself outside in a strange area
that he never recalled seeing before. He decided he was hopelessly
disoriented and came back to his body. His description of that area
matched an interior courtyard of the building that he would indeed have
found himself in during an OOBE if he had inadvertently gone in exactly
the opposite direction he should have. It is not absolutely certain that
he had never seen this courtyard while visiting my office earlier in the
day, so this experience is not in itself good evidence for a paranormal
component to the OOBE.
In terms of physiological changes, he again showed a Stage 1 dreaming
pattern, with only two rapid eye movements in the whole period and no
clear苞ut blood pressure drop on this occasion.
Mr. Monroe's experiences, those of many prominent mystics throughout the
ages, and all the data of ESP indicate that our current physical view of
the world is a very limited one, that the dimensions of reality are much
wider than our current concepts. My attempts and those of other investi
gators to make these experiences behave in an acceptable fashion may not
work out as well as we would like. Let me give two examples of
"experiments" with Mr. Monroe which were impressive to me personally,
but which are very difficult to evaluate by our ordinary scientific
criteria.
Shortly after completing the first series of laboratory experiments, I
moved from the east coast to California. A few months after moving, my
wife and I decided to set up an experiment. One evening we would
concentrate intensely for half an hour, in an attempt to help Mr. Monroe
have an OOBE and come to our home. If he were then able to describe our
home, this would produce good data on the para計sychological aspects of
his OOBEs. I telephoned Mr. Monroe that afternoon, and told him only
that we would try to direct him across the country to our home at some
unspecified time that night, without giving him any further details.
That evening I randomly selected a time which, I believed, would occur
well after Mr. Monroe would be asleep. My random selection came out 11
P.M. California time, or 2 A.M. east coast time. At 11 P.M. my wife and
I began our concentration. At 11:05 p.m. the telephone rang,
interrupting it. We did not answer the telephone, but tried to continue
our concentration until 11:30 P.M. The following morning I telephoned
Mr. Monroe and told him only that the results had been encouraging, and
that he should write down an independent account of what he had
experienced for later comparison against our independent accounts.
On the evening of the experiment, Mr. Monroe had the following
experience, which I quote from the notes he mailed me: "Evening passed
uneventfully, and I finally got into bed about 1:40 A.M., still wide
awake (north貞outh position). The cat was lying in bed with me. After a
long period of calming my mind, a sense of warmth swept over my body,
with no break in consciousness, no pre貞leep. Almost immediately, I felt
something (or someone) rocking my body from side to side, then tugging
at my feet! (I heard the cat let out a complaining yell.) I recognized
immediately that this had something to do with Charlie's experiment, and
with full trust, did not feel my usual caution (about strangers). The
tugging at the legs continued, and I finally managed to separate one
Second Body arm, and held it up, feeling around in the dark. After a
moment, the tugging stopped, and a hand took my wrist, first gently,
then very, very firmly, and pulled me out of the physical easily. Still
trusting, and a little excited, I expressed willingness to go to
Charlie, if that was where he (it) wanted to lead me. The answer came
back affirmatively (although there was no sense of personality, very

businesslike). With the hand around my wrist very firmly, I could feel a
part of the arm belonging to the hand (slightly hairy, muscular male).
But I could not "see" who belonged to the arm. I also heard my name
called once.
"Then we started to move, with the familiar feeling of something like
air rushing around the body. After a short trip (seemed like five
seconds in duration), we stopped and the hand released my wrist. There
was complete silence and darkness. Then I drifted down into what seemed
to be a room. . . ."
I've stopped quoting from Mr. Monroe's notes at this point, except to
add that when he finished this brief trip and got out of bed to
telephone me it was 2:05 A.M., his time. Thus the time match with my
wife and I beginning to concentrate was extremely good: he felt the tug
pulling him from his body within a minute or so of when we started to
concentrate. On the other hand, his continuing description of what our
home looked like and what my wife and I were doing was not good at all:
he "perceived" too many people in the room, he "perceived" me doing
things I didn't do, and his description of the room itself was quite
vague.
What do I make of this? This is one of those frustrating events that
parapsychologists encounter when working with poorly controlled
phenomena. It is not evidential enough to say that it was unquestionably
a paranormal effect, yet it is difficult simply to say that nothing
happened. It is comfortable to stick with our common貞ense assumptions
that the physical world is what it seems to be, and that a man (or his
sense organs) is either located at a certain place and able to observe
it or he is not. Some OOBEs reported in the literature seem to fit this
view, while others have a disturbing mixture of correct perceptions of
the physical situation with "perceptions" of things that weren't there
or didn't happen (to us ordinary observers). Mr. Monroe reports a number
of such mixed experiences in this book, especially his seeming to
"communicate" with people while he is having an OOBE, but their never
remembering it.
The second puzzling "experiment" occurred in the fall of 1970 when I
briefly visited Mr. Monroe in Virginia, en route to a conference in
Washington. Staying overnight, I requested that if he had an OOBE that
night, he should come to my bedroom and try to pull me out of my body so
I could have the experience too. I realized at the time that I made this
request with a certain amount of ambivalence: I wanted him to succeed,
yet another part of me did not. More on that later.
Sometime after dawn that morning (I had slept somewhat fitfully and the
light was occasionally waking me), I was dreaming when I began vaguely
remembering that Mr. Monroe was supposed to try to get me out of my
body. I became partially conscious, and felt a sense of "vibration" all
around me in the dream world, a "vibration" that had a certain amount of
indefinable menace connected with it. In spite of the fear this aroused,
I thought that I should try to have an OOBE, but at that point I lost my
thread of consciousness, and only remember waking up a while later,
feeling that the experiment was a failure. A week later I received a
letter from a colleague in New York, the well虺nown parapsychologist Dr.
Stanley Krippner, and I began to wonder if it really was a "failure." He
was writing to me about an experience his stepdaughter, Carie, who I am
quite fond of, had the same morning I was having my "dream." Carie had
spontaneously reported to her father that she had seen me in a
restaurant in New York City on her way to school that morning. This
would have been roughly about the time I was having the dream. Neither
she nor her father knew that I was on the east coast.
What do I make of this? This was the first time in years that I had
consciously attempted to have an OOBE (I have never, to my knowledge,
succeeded), and while I had no conscious memory of having one, a friend

reports seeing me in a restaurant in New York City. Even more puzzling,
I would have no desire in the world to go to a restaurant in New York
City, a place I dislike intensely, if I were having an OOBE, although
visiting Carie and her family is always very pleasant. Coincidence?
Again, something I would never present as scientific evidence of
anything, but something I can't dismiss as meaningless.
This last incident illustrates an attitude toward OOBEs that I nave
observed in myself, although I do not like to admit it, which is that I
am somewhat afraid of them. Part of me is very interested in the
phenomenon scientifically, another part of me is excited at the prospect
of personally experiencing it. A third part of me knows that an OOBE is
something like dying, or opening up part of my mind to an unknown realm,
and this third part is not at all anxious to get on with it. If OOBEs
are "real," if the things Mr. Monroe describes cannot be dismissed as an
interesting kind of fantasy or dream, our world view is going to change
radically. And uncomfortably.
One thing that psychologists are reasonably sure of about human nature
is that it resists change. We like the world to be the way we think it
is, even if we think it's unpleasant. At least we can anticipate what
may happen. Change and uncertainty have possibilities of unsettling
things happening, especially when that change doesn't take account of
our desires, our wills, our egos.
I have tried to talk mainly about straightforward scientific studies of
OOBEs in introducing this book, but now we get to what may be the most
important aspect of the subject. Mr. Monroe's experiences are
frightening. He is talking about dying, and dying is not a polite topic
in our society. We leave it in the hands of priests and ministers to say
comforting words, we occasionally joke about it, and we have a lot of
aggressive fantasies about other people dying, but we don't really think
about it. This book is going to make you think about death. You are not
going to like some of the things it says and some of the thoughts it
inspires.
It will be very tempting to dismiss Robert Monroe as a madman. I would
suggest that you not do that. Neither would I suggest that you take
everything he says as absolute truth. He is a good reporter, a man I
have immense respect for, but he is one man, brought up in a particular
culture at a particular time, and therefore his powers of observation
are limited. If you bear this in mind, but pay serious attention to the
experiences he describes, you may be disturbed, but you may learn some
very important things. In spite of being afraid.
If you have had an OOBE yourself, this book may help you to be less
afraid, or to develop your potentials for this experience into a
valuable talent.
Read the book carefully and examine your reactions. If you really want
to experience it yourself, good luck!
CHARLES T. TART
Davis, California January 10,1971

1.
NOT WITH A WAND, NOR LIGHTLY
The following ordinarily would appear in a foreword or preface. It is
placed here on the assumption that most readers skip such preliminaries
to get to the meat of the matter. In this case, the following is the
crux of it all.
The primary purposes for the release and publication of the material
contained here are (i) that through dissemination as widely as possible,
some other human being計erhaps just one衫ay be saved from the agony and
terror of trial and error in an area where there have been no concrete
answers; that he may have comfort in the knowledge that others have had
the same experiences; that he will recognize in himself the phenomenon
and thus avoid the trauma of psychotherapy, or at the worst, mental
breakdown and commitment to a mental institution; and (2) that tomorrow
or in the years to come, the formal, accepted sciences of our culture
will expand their horizons, concepts, postulates, and research to open
wide the avenues and doorways intimated herein to the great enrichment
of man's knowledge and understanding of himself and his complete
environment.
If one or both of these aims are served, whenever and wherever it may
be, this is sufficient reward indeed.
The presentation of such material is not designed for any particular
scientific group. Rather, the principal attempt is to be as specific as
possible in language understandable to scientists and laymen alike, with
avoidance of ambiguous generalities. The physicist, chemist, life
scientist, psychiatrist, and philosopher may each use more technical or
specialized terminology to state the same premise. Such interpretation
is expected. It will indicate that the plan of communication is
workable, that the "plain" talk does convey the proper meaning to a wide
base rather than to a narrow pinnacle of specialists.
It is expected, too, that many interpretations will be contradictory.
The most difficult mental process of all is to consider objectively any
concept which, if accepted as fact, will toss into discard a lifetime of
training and experience. Yet much has already been accepted as fact on
far less direct evidence than that presented here, and is now
"accepted." It is the hope that the same will apply to the data included
here.
It is indeed the most difficult mental process of all, this objective
consideration business. Once in a lifetime is enough.
Let's look for a beginning to this candid report of a highly personal
experience.
In the spring of 1958 I was living a reasonably normal life with a
reasonably normal family. Because we appreciated nature and quiet, ours
was a country environment. The only unorthodox activity was my
experimentation with techniques of data learning during sleep趴ith
myself as the chief subject.
The first sign of deviation from the norm took place on a Sunday
afternoon. While the rest of the family had gone to church, I conducted
an experiment by listening to a particular tape recording in a highly
isolated environment It was a simple attempt to force concentration on a
single intelligent貞ignal source (aural) with lowered signal input from
the other senses. Degree of retention and recall would indicate the
success of the technique.
Isolated from other sights and sounds, I listened to the tape. It
contained no unusual or stray suggestion. Most significant in retrospect
was the strong suggestion to remember and recall all that took place
during the relaxation exercise. The tape ran its course with no unusual
result. My recall was thorough and complete because it had been a
product of my own efforts and thus familiar to me. Perhaps too much so,
as no retention and recall of original or new material was possible in

my case. The technique would have to be utilized with some other subject
When my family returned, we all had brunch, which consisted of scrambled
eggs, bacon, and coffee. Some unimportant controversy occurred at the
table, which was not germane to the problem.
A little over an hour later, I was seized with a severe, iron虐ard cramp
which extended across my diaphragm or solar plexus area just under my
rib cage. It was a solid band of unyielding ache.
At first, I thought it was some form of food poisoning from brunch. In
desperation, I forced myself to regurgitate, but my stomach was empty.
Other members of my family who had eaten the same food showed no signs
of illness or discomfort. I tried exercising and walking, on the
assumption that it was a cramped abdominal muscle. It was not appen
dicitis, as my appendix had been removed. I could breathe properly in
spite of the pain, and my heart appeared normal in pulse rate. There was
no perspiration or other symptoms whatsoever虻ust the hard, tense,
locked虹n計lace rigidity of a band of muscles in the upper abdomen.
It occurred to me that perhaps some factor in the recording had caused
it In going over the tape and the written copy from which it had been
made, I found nothing unusual. What suggestion there was, I complied
with, seeking to relieve any unconscious suggestion that might have been
applied. Still, no relief.
Perhaps I should have phoned immediately for a doctor. However, it
didn't seem that serious, nor did it become any worse. But it didn't get
any better, either. Finally, we did phone for medical help. All of the
local doctors were away or playing golf.
From one負hirty in the afternoon until around midnight, the cramp and
pain continued. No typical home medication seemed to alleviate it.
Sometime after twelve I fell asleep from pure exhaustion.
I woke up in the early morning, and the cramp and pain were gone. There
was muscle soreness throughout the afflicted area, much as one gets from
overcoughing, but no more. What caused the cramp in this area is still
unknown. It is mentioned only because it was the first out觔f負he
ordinary event, physical or otherwise, that took place.
In retrospect, perhaps it was the touch of a magic wand, or a sledge
hammer, although I didn't know it at the time.
Some three weeks later, the second major event entered the picture.
There had been no further recorded tape experimentation, because the
suspicion was strong that the cramp was somehow related. Thus there was
nothing that apparently triggered the event.
Again, it was a Sunday afternoon and the family had gone to church. I
lay down on the couch in the living room for a short nap while the house
was quiet. I had just become prone (head to the north, if that had any
meaning), when a beam or ray seemed to come out of the sky to the north
at about a 30angle from the horizon. It was like being struck by a
warm light. Only this was daylight and no beam was visible, if there
truly was one.
I thought it was sunlight at first, although this was impossible on the
north side of the house. The effect when the beam struck my entire body
was to cause it to shake violently or "vibrate." I was utterly powerless
to move. It was as if I were being held in a vise.
Shocked and frightened, I forced myself to move. It was like pushing
against invisible bonds. As I slowly sat upright on the couch, the
shaking and vibration slowly faded away and I was able to move freely.
I stood up and walked around. There had been no loss of consciousness
that I was aware of, and the clock showed that only a few seconds had
elapsed since I had stretched out on the couch. I had not closed my
eyes, and had seen the room and heard outdoor noises during the entire
episode. I looked out the window, especially to the north, although why
and what I expected to see, I don't know. Everything looked normal and
serene. I went outside for a walk to puzzle over this strange thing that

had happened.
Within the following six weeks, the same peculiar condition manifested
itself nine times. It occurred at different periods and locales, and the
only common factor was that it began just after I had lain down for rest
or sleep. Whenever it took place, I fought myself to a sitting position,
and the "shaking" faded away. Although my body "felt" the shaking, I
could see no visible evidence that it was doing so.
My limited knowledge of medicine envisioned many possibilities as the
cause. I thought of epilepsy, but I understood that epileptics had no
memory or sensation in such seizures. Furthermore, I understood that
epilepsy is hereditary and shows signs at an early age, and neither was
evident in my case.
Second was the possibility of a brain disorder such as a tumor or
growth. Again, the symptoms were not typical, but this could be it. With
trepidation, I went to our longtime family physician, Dr. Richard
Gordon, and explained the symptoms. As an internist and diagnostician,
he should have had what answers there may have been. He also knew my
medical history, such as it was.
After a thorough physical, Dr. Gordon suggested that I had been working
too hard, that I get more sleep and take off a little weight. In short,
he could find nothing wrong with me physically. He laughed at the
possibility of a brain tumor or epilepsy. I took his word for it and
returned home relieved.
If there was no physical basis for the phenomenon, I thought, it must be
hallucinatory, a form of dreaming. Therefore, if the condition came
again, I would observe it as objectively as possible. It obliged by
"coming on" that very evening.
It began some two minutes after I lay down to sleep. This time, I was
determined to stay with it and see what happened rather than fight my
way out of it As I lay there, the "feeling" surged into my head and
swept over my entire body. It was not a shaking, but more of a
"vibration," steady and unvarying in frequency. It felt much like an
electric shock running through the entire body without the pain
involved. Also, the frequency seemed somewhat below the sixty苞ycle
pulsation, perhaps half that rate.
Frightened, I stayed with it, trying to remain calm. I could still see
the room around me, but could hear little above the roaring sound caused
by the vibrations. I wondered what would happen next.
Nothing happened. After some five minutes, the sensation slowly faded
away and I got up feeling perfectly normal. My pulse rate was up,
evidently due to the excitement, but no more. With this result, I lost
much of my fear of the condition.
In the next four or five occurrences of the vibration, I discovered
little more. On one occasion, at least, it seemed to develop into a ring
of sparks about two feet in diameter, with the axis of my body in the
center of the ring. I could actually see this ring if I closed my eyes.
The ring would start at the head and slowly sweep down to my toes and
back to the head, keeping this up in a regular oscillation. The time of
the cycle seemed to be some five seconds. As the ring passed over each
section of my body, I could feel the vibrations like a band cutting
through that section. When the ring passed over my head, a great roaring
surged with it, and I felt the vibrations in my brain. I attempted to
study this flaming electrical貞eeming ring, but could discover no reason
for it, or what it was.
All of this remained unknown to my wife and children. I could see no
reason to worry or concern them until something definite was known of it
I did take a friend into my confidence, a well虺nown psychologist, Dr.
Foster Bradshaw. If it had not been for him, I cannot predict where I
would be at this time. Perhaps in an institution.
I discussed the matter with him, and he was most interested. He

suggested it might be some form of hallucination. Like Dr. Gordon, he
knew me well. Consequently, he laughed at the concept that I was in the
beginning stages of schizophrenia or the like. I asked him what he
thought I should do. I shall always remember his answer.
"Why, there's nothing else you can do but look into it and see what it
is," Dr. Bradshaw replied. "Anyhow, it doesn't seem you have much
choice. If it happened to me, I'd go off in the woods somewhere and keep
trying until I found the answer."
The difference was that it was happening to me and not to Dr. Bradshaw,
and I couldn't afford to go off in the woods, either literally or
figuratively. I had a family to support, among other things.
Several months passed, and the vibration condition continued to occur.
It almost became boring, until late one night when I was lying in bed
just before sleep. The vibrations came and I wearily and patiently
waited for them to pass away so I could go to sleep. As I lay there, my
arm was draped over the right side of the bed, fingers just brushing the
rug.
Idly, I tried to move my fingers and found I could scratch the rug.
Without thinking or realizing that I could move my fingers during the
vibration, I pushed with the tips of my fingers against the rug. After a
moment's resistance, my fingers seemed to penetrate the rug and touch
the floor underneath. With mild curiosity, I pushed my hand down
farther.
My fingers went through the floor and there was the rough upper surface
of the ceiling of the room below. I felt around, and there was a small
triangular chip of wood, a bent nail, and some sawdust. Only mildly
interested in this daydream sensation, I pushed my hand still deeper. It
went through the first苯loor ceiling and I felt as if my whole arm was
through the floor. My hand touched water. Without excitement, I splashed
the water with my fingers.
Suddenly, I became fully aware of the situation. I was wide awake. I
could see the moonlit landscape through the window. I could feel myself
lying on the bed, the covers over my body, the pillow under my head, my
chest rising and falling as I breathed. The vibrations were still
present, but to a lesser degree.
Yet, impossibly, my hand was playing in a pool of water, and my arm felt
as if it was stuck down through the floor. I was surely wide awake and
the sensation was still there. How could I be awake in all other
respects and still "dream" that my arm was stuck down through the floor?
The vibrations started to fade, and for some reason I thought there was
a connection between my arm stuck through the floor and their presence.
If they faded away before I got my arm "out," the floor might close in
and I would lose an arm. Perhaps the vibrations had made a hole in the
floor temporarily. I didn't stop to consider the "how" of it.
I yanked my arm out of the floor, pulled it up on the bed, and the
vibrations ended soon after. I got up, turned on the light, and looked
at the spot beside the bed. There was no hole in the floor or rug. They
were just as they always had been. I looked at my hand and arm, and even
looked for the water on my hand. There was none, and my arm seemed per
fectly normal. I looked about the room. My wife was sleeping quietly in
the bed, nothing seemed amiss.
I thought about the hallucination for a long time before I was able to
calm down enough to sleep. The next day I considered actually cutting a
hole in the floor to see if what I had felt was there on the subfloor
the triangular chip of wood, the bent nail, and the sawdust. At the
time, I couldn't see disfiguring the floor because of a wild
hallucination.
I told Dr. Bradshaw of this episode, and he agreed that it was a rather
convincing daydream. He was in favor of cutting the hole in the floor to
find out what was there. He introduced me to Dr. Lewis Wolberg, a

psychiatrist of note. At a dinner party, I casually mentioned the
vibration phenomenon to Dr. Wolberg. He was only politely interested,
and evidently in no mood for "business," for which I couldn't blame him.
I didn't have the courage to ask him about the arm in the floor.
It was becoming fairly confusing. My environment and personal experience
had led me to expect some kind of answers or at least promising opinions
from modern technology. I had an above要ormal scientific, engineering,
and medical background as a layman. Now, I was faced with something
where answers or even extrapolation was not quickly available. In
retrospect, I still cannot envisage having dropped the matter entirely
at any time. It may be that I could not have done so if I tried.
If I thought I faced incongruities at this point, it was because I did
not know what was yet to come. Some four weeks later, when the
"vibrations" came again, I was duly cautious about attempting to move an
arm or leg. It was late at night, and I was lying in bed before sleep.
My wife had fallen asleep beside me. There was a surge that seemed to be
in my head, and quickly the condition spread through my body. It all
seemed the same. As I lay there trying to decide how to analyze the
thing in another way, I just happened to think how nice it would be to
take a glider up and fly the next afternoon (my hobby at that time).
Without considering any consequences要ot knowing there would be any背
thought of the pleasure it would bring,
After a moment, I became aware of something pressing against my
shoulder. Half苞urious, I reached back and up to feel what it was. My
hand encountered a smooth wall. I moved my hand along the wall the
length of my arm and it ; continued smooth and unbroken.
My senses fully alert, I tried to see in the dim light. It was _ a
wall, and I was lying against it with my shoulder. I immediately
reasoned that I had gone to sleep and fallen out of bed. (I had never
done so before, but all sorts of strange things were happening, and
falling out of bed was quite possible.)
Then I looked again. Something was wrong. This wall had no windows, no
furniture against it, no doors. It was not a wall in my bedroom. Yet
somehow it was familiar. Identification came instantly. It wasn't a
wall, it was the ceiling. I was floating against the ceiling, bouncing
gently with any movement I made. I rolled in the air, startled, and
looked down. There, in the dim light below me, was the bed. There were
two figures lying in the bed. To the right was my wife. Beside her was
someone else. Both seemed asleep.
This was a strange dream, I thought. I was curious. Whom would I dream
to be in bed with my wife? I looked more closely, and the shock was
intense. I was the someone on the bed!
My reaction was almost instantaneous. Here I was, there was my body. I
was dying, this was death, and I wasn't ready to die. Somehow, the
vibrations were killing me. Desperately, like a diver, I swooped down to
my body and dove in. I then felt the bed and the covers, and when I
opened my eyes, I was looking at the room from the perspective of my
bed.
What had happened? Had I truly almost died? My heart was beating
rapidly, but not unusually so. I moved my arms and legs. Everything
seemed normal The vibrations had faded away. I got up and walked around
the room, looked out the window, smoked a cigarette.
It was a long time before I had the courage to return to bed, lie down,
and try to sleep.
The following week I returned to Dr. Gordon for another physical
examination. I didn't tell him the reason for the visit, but he could
see I was worried. He carefully examined me, ran blood tests,
fluoroscopes, electrocardiograms, palpated all cavities, ran urinalysis,
and about everything else he could think of. He checked very carefully
for indications of brain lesions, and asked me many questions relating

to motor action of various parts of the body. He arranged for an EEG
(brain趴ave analysis), which evidently showed no unusual problem. At
least he never reported any to me, and I am sure he would have.
Dr. Gordon gave me some tranquilizers, and sent me home with orders to
take off weight, smoke less, get more restand said that if I had a
problem, it was not a physical one.
I met with Dr. Bradshaw, my psychologist friend. He was even less
helpful and far from sympathetic when I told him the story. He thought I
should try to repeat the experience if I could. I told him I wasn't
ready to die.
"Oh, I don't think you'll do that," Dr. Bradshaw stated calmly. "Some of
the fellows who practice yoga and those Eastern religions claim they can
do it whenever they want to."
I asked him "do" what.
"Why, get out of the physical body for a while," he replied. "They claim
they can go all over the place. You ought to try it."
I told him that was ridiculous. Nobody can travel around without their
physical body.
"Well, I wouldn't be too sure," Dr. Bradshaw replied calmly. "You ought
to read something about the Hindus. Did you study any philosophy in
college?"
I said I had, but there was nothing I could recall about this traveling
without負he苑ody business.
"Maybe you didn't have the right philosophy professor, that's what it
seems to me." Dr. Bradshaw lit a cigar, then looked at me. "Well, don't
be so closed衫inded. Try it and find out As my old philosophy professor
said, 'If you're blind in one eye, turn your head, and if you're blind
in both eyes, then open your ears and listen.'"
I asked what to do if you were deaf, too, but I didn't get a reply.
Of course, Dr. Bradshaw had every reason to be casual about it. It was
happening to me, not him. I don't know what I would have done without
his pragmatic approach and his wonderful sense of humor. It is a debt I
shall never be able to repay.
The vibrations came and went six more times before I got up the courage
to try to repeat the experience. When I did, it was an anticlimax. With
the vibrations in full force, I thought of floating upward苔nd I did.
I smoothly floated up over the bed, and when I willed myself to stop, I
did, floating in mid苔ir. It was not a bad feeling at all, but I was
nervous about falling suddenly. After a few seconds I thought myself
downward, and a moment later I felt myself in bed again with all normal
physical senses fully operating. There had been no discontinuity in con
sciousness from the moment I lay down in bed until I got up after the
vibrations faded. If it wasn't real虻ust a hallucination or dream背 was
in trouble. I couldn't tell where wake苯ulness stopped and dreaming
began.
There are thousands of people in mental institutions who have just that
problem.
The second time I attempted to disassociate deliberately, I was
successful. Again I went up to ceiling height. However, this time I
experienced an overwhelmingly strong sexual drive and could think of
nothing else. Embarrassed and irritated at myself because of my
inability to control this tide of emotion, I returned back into my
physical body.
It wasn't until some five episodes later that I discovered the secret of
such control. The evident importance of sexuality in the whole subject
is so great that it is covered in detail later. At the time, it was an
exasperating mental block which held me within the confines of the room
where my physical body lay.
With no other applicable terminology, I began to call the condition the
Second State, and the other, non計hysical body we seem to possess the

Second Body. So far this terminology fits as well as anything else.
It wasn't until the first evidential experience which could be checked
that I seriously considered these to be anything but daydreams,
hallucinations, a neurotic aberration, the beginnings of schizophrenia,
fantasies caused by self虐ypnosis, or worse.
That first evidential experience was indeed a sledgehammer blow. If I
accepted the data as fact, it struck hard at nearly all of my life
experience to that date, my training, my concepts, and my sense of
values. Most of all, it shattered my faith in the totality and certainty
of our culture's scientific knowledge. I was sure our scientists had all
the answers. Or most of them.
Conversely, if I rejected what was evident to me, if to no one else,
then I would also be rejecting what I respected so greatly: that
mankind's emancipation and upward struggle depends chiefly upon his
translation of the unknown into the known, through the use of his
intellect and the scientific principle.
That was the dilemma. It may have been truly the touch of a magic wand
and a gift bestowed I still don't know.

2. SEARCH AND RESEARCH
What does one do when faced with an unknown? Turn away and forget about
it? In this case, two factors negated that possibility. One was nothing
more than curiosity. The second: how can one forget or ignore an
elephant in the living room? Or more to the point, a ghost in the
bedroom?
On the other side of the scale were the conflicts and anxieties, very
real, very disturbing. There was no question that I was deeply afraid of
what might happen to me if the "condition" continued. I was much more
concerned about the possibility of a growing mental illness than a
physical deterioration. I had studied enough psychology and had enough
psychologist and psychiatrist friends to compound such fears. Moreover,
I was afraid to discuss the matter with these friends. I was afraid that
I would then be classified as their "patients," and lose the closeness
that equality (normalcy) brings. Non計rofessional friends in business
and community would be worse. I would be labeled a freak or psychotic,
which could seriously affect my life and the lives of those close to me.
Finally, it seemed to be something to keep from my family. It seemed
unnecessary that they worry along with me. It was only the definite need
to explain odd actions that forced the disclosure to my wife. She
accepted it reluctantly because there was no other real choice, and thus
she became a worried witness to incidents and events much in
contradiction to her religious training. The children were then much too
young to understand. (Later, the matter became commonplace to them. Away
at college, my older daughter reported that after she and her roommate
had looked around the empty dorm room one night, she said, "Daddy, if
you're here, I think you better go now. We want to get undressed for
bed." Actually, I was two hundred miles away at the time, both
physically and otherwise.)
Gradually I became more accustomed to this strange addition in my life.
More and more, I was slowly able to control its movements. In a few ways
it had actually become helpful. I had become reluctant to part with it.
The mystery of its very presence had aroused my curiosity.
Even after I had determined that there was no physiological cause, and
that I was no more insane than most of my fellow men, the fears
persisted. It was a defect, illness, or deformity that had to be hidden
from "normal" people. There was no one to talk to about the problem,
other than an occasional meeting with Dr. Bradshaw. The only other
solution seemed to be some form of psychotherapy. But a year (or five or
ten) of daily interviews costing thousands of dollars with no promised
results didn't seem very efficient.
It was very lonely in those early days.
Finally, I began to experiment with this strange aberration, keeping
notes of each event. I also began to read in areas of study long
neglected in my life pattern. Religion had not greatly influenced my
thinking, yet it seemed that this was the only remaining body of the
writings and knowledge of man in which I could look for answers. Beyond
childhood churchgoing and rare attendance with a friend, God and church
and religion had meant little to me. In fact, I hadn't given the matter
much thought one way or another, as it simply didn't evoke my interest
In my superficial reading of past and present Western philosophies and
religions, I found vague references and generalities. Some seemed to fit
as somebody's attempt to describe or explain similar incidents. Biblical
and Christian writings offered many of these, all without specific
causes or cures. The best advice seemed to be to pray, meditate, fast,
go to church, absolve my sins, accept the Trinity, believe in the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, resist Evil, or resist not Evil,
and give myself to God.
All of this did nothing but add to the conflict. If this new thing in my
life was "good," i.e., a "gift," then it evidently belonged to saints,

or at least saintly types, according to religious history. I felt that
qualification for sainthood was certainly above and beyond me. If this
new thing was "evil," then it was the Work of the Devil, or, at the
least, of a demon trying to possess or dispossess me, and should be
exorcised.
The orthodox ministers of organized religion whom I met politely
accepted the latter view to varying degrees. I got the feeling I was
dangerous and heretical in their eyes. They were wary.
In the Eastern religions I found more acceptance of the idea, as Dr.
Bradshaw had indicated. There was much talk of the existence of a non
physical body. Again, such a condition of being was the product of great
spiritual development Only Masters, Gurus, and other long負rained Holy
Men had the ability to leave their physical bodies temporarily to
achieve indescribable mystical insights. There were no details, and no
pragmatic explanation of what was meant by spiritual development.
Implied was that in the practices of secret cults, sects, lamaseries,
etc., such details were common knowledge.
If this were true, what or who was I? Certainly too old to start life
anew in a Tibetan monastery. The loneliness became acute. Evidently,
there were no answers. Not in our culture.
It was at this point that I discovered the existence of an underground
in the United States. The only factor missing is that no laws exist
against its function nor is there official persecution and prosecution
involved. This underground only occasionally intermingles in part with
the worlds of business, science, politics, academia, and the so苞alled
arts. Furthermore, it definitely is not limited to the United States,
but infiltrates all of Western civilization.
Many people may have heard of it vaguely or casually have come in
contact with it, and passed it off as just people with queer ideas. For
one thing is usually certain: members of this underground who are
respected in their communities don't talk about the interest or beliefs
that qualify them for membership unless they know you too are in the
club. They have learned from experience that to be outspoken brings
censure 苯rom their ministers, customers, employers, or even friends.
I suspect the membership may run into millions虹f all would admit to
their qualification. They are found in all walks of life: scientists,
psychiatrists, physicians, housewives, college students, businessmen,
teen苔gers, and at least a few ministers in formal religions.
This group meets all the qualifications of an underground movement. They
gather in small groups, quietly and often semi貞ecretly. (The events are
often publicly announced, but you have to be "with it" before you can
understand the notice.) The participants usually discuss affairs of the
underground only with other members. Other than family or close friends
(who are probably also members), the community doesn't know of this
secret interest and life of the underground member. If you asked him, he
would deny such membership because often he doesn't realize he really is
so associated. All are to some degree emotionally and intellectually
dedicated to a cause. Finally, the underground has its own literature,
language, technology, and to some extent demigods.
At the moment, this underground is highly disorganized. In fact, there
is no organization whatsoever in the usual sense of the word. Rarely,
even, have the local groups gone so far as to adopt a title or name for
themselves. So far, they are simply small but regular gatherings held in
someone's living room, or a bank's conference room, or quite possibly a
church rectory. This group of individuals is groping in the dark and
seems to take many diverse pathways軌et the goal is the same for all.
However, like other kinds of underground movements, if you have become a
member and you visit another city, you inevitably meet other members. It
isn't planned. It just "happens."
Who comprises this underground? First, the professionals. At one end are

the parapsychologists, very few in number. These are men who have
legitimate doctorates from recognized universities, who have publicly
conducted research into ESP. The most well虺nown of these is Dr. J. B.
Rhine, formerly of Duke University, who conducted and compounded simple
statistical probability card tests for some thirty years. To his
satisfaction, he proved statistically that ESP is fact. His results are
looked upon dubiously and for the most part unacceptably by the majority
of psychologists and psychiatrists in the United States. There are
others in the same category. Andrija Puharich, J. G. Pratt, Robert
Crookall, Hornell Hart, Gardner Murphy all come under this classifi
cation. If you are a member, these are familiar names.
The professional spectrum runs the gamut from the para計sychologist to
the roadside palmist who claims to be a gypsy or New Delhi Indian, and
who charges five dollars for a quick five衫inute stock "reading." Areas
of interest are quite diverse, but all have interconnecting bonds of
common beliefs in one way or another.
The mass underground looks to the professionals for information and
guidance, and gives them something akin to hero worship. Anyone who
Writes a Book, Organizes a Foundation, Conducts Research, has a Major
Experience, Studied with a Great Professional, Gives Psychic Readings,
Conducts Classes in Mind and/or Soul Development, Heals by Faith, is an
Accredited Astrologer, Minister of Divine Science or Spiritualism,
Trance Medium, Outer范pace Saucer. Devotee, Hypnotist負hese are the
professionals.
Most derive all or part of their income from this activity. Many have
deep professional jealousy for each other, and often are inclined to be
suspicious of techniques and theories propounded outside their
particular activity. They may even subtly deride or look with tolerant,
superior amusement at results unrelated to their specialty. This could
well explain why, as of now, there is no organization in the
underground. Yet, in spite of themselves, the professionals are drawn to
one another. Their common interest forces this. There are no others with
whom they can share their thoughts and experiences as equals and with
understanding.
This is not in any way intended to cast aspersions or discredit upon the
professionals. They are a completely fascinating and wonderful group of
people. Each in his own way, whatever it may be, is seeking after Truth.
What a dull world it would be without them once you have become a member
of the underground.
For the underground consumer, there are magazines, newspapers, lectures,
book clubs (at least fifty new underground books are published each
year, many by top houses), and even TV and radio programs. The latter,
evidently put together by overeager members, have not been successful
because the underground is still very much a minority group. The basic
public reaction is: "You don't really believe in that stuff, do you?"
Who, then, makes up the mass of this underground? Contrary to what one
might expect, they are not merely a conglomerate of silly, uneducated,
superstitious, unreasoning misfits. True, some of the like are included,
but at no greater percentage than is found in the general population. As
a matter of fact, if it could be surveyed, it is quite probable that
their average IQ would be far above that of a general cross section of
Western humanity.
The common bond or cause that draws them together is simple. All have a
belief that (1) man's Inner Self is neither understood nor fully
expressed in our contemporary society; and (2) this Inner Self has
capabilities to act and perform mentally and materially to a degree
unknown and unrecognized by modem science. These are people whose prime
avocation is to read, talk, think, discuss, and participate in anything
"psychic" or "spiritual." This is all that is needed for membership.
Perhaps you are in the club and didn't realize it

How do these people "get" that way? The most common answer is to
experience or be a part of some phenomenon that cannot be explained by
modem scientific, philosophic, or religious teachings. One type of
person shrugs it off, sweeps it under the rug, and forgets about it. The
other, who eventually becomes a member, tries to find some answers.
I qualified for membership because I couldn't find any other source of
information. Unfortunately, the information I was looking for was very
sparse indeed, even in this strange new觔ld world. But at least there
were those who seriously considered the possibility that the Second
State could and did happen.
It soon became apparent that the underground started more than a hundred
years ago, or earlier, when present苓ay science began to organize man's
concepts and rid them of unreasoning, unsupported "knowledge." In such
efforts to purify, anything that did not or had not yet met the test of
empiricism was ruthlessly discarded by intellectual leadership. Those
who continued to hold any of the discarded beliefs fell into disrepute.
If they stubbornly persisted and still wished to be active and accepted
in society, they had no choice but to go underground with their secret
ideas while maintaining another image publicly. Many who refused to
practice this deceit became Martyrs.
To date, in this enlightened society, the same attitude still exists to
a very great extent. Of the professionals who are known by their fellows
as proponents of parapsychology or anything similar, there may be five
who still command admiration and respect publicly from their profession,
be it medicine, psychology, psychiatry, or the physical sciences. At
this stage, I believe I have met all five. Sadly, I am little wiser,
through no fault of theirs. They just don't know much about the Second
State or Second Body.
Most of all, I enjoy the people I have met in the underground. I've
found them in small towns, big cities, in business, in church groups, in
universities, and even in the American Psychiatric Association! As a
rule, they are truly gentle people. They are jolly, with a warm sense of
humor. They are a happy group who can laugh when necessary at their own
serious interest. Whether intentionally or not, they are the most
altruistic and empathetic cross section of humanity I have known. It
must be no accident that they are the most religious in the true sense
of the word.
If this appears to be a curt dismissal of all other sources and material
uncovered in the "psychic" writings available, it is not so intended.
Each has its own version of Truth, and perhaps there are indeed many
Truths. I have sat in seances with trance mediums and asked definite
questions, received vague answers which were to me pure evasions when a
straightforward reply would have meant so much. Yet, later, to my
astonishment, in one such case I participated in a Second Body
experiment that verified (to me and others) the authenticity of this
medium's ability. Truth here is truly a mystery!
The work of Edgar Cayce, virtually a latter苓ay saint in the psychic
world, was without doubt most evidential and well investigated, but
unbelievable in terms of present苓ay science and medicine. Most
definitely, here was truth unfolding, and history may not record it
except in some dim archives. Today, some twenty years after his death,
no more is known as to how his ability worked and what it was than on
the day he died.
Cayce's readings were helpful, but are exceedingly difficult to bring
into concrete focus as they relate to Second State existence. He
confirmed it, but did not explain. Much of his material in this area is
clouded by the haze of a strong religious conditioning. This leaves it
open to interpretation, so Cayce translators (ministers?) have sprung up
to provide such intercession.
There are others even now who evidently can perform similarly to Cayce.

One gave quite accurate physical reports of me, and provided some
general data on my Second State activities which were neither
enlightening nor provable. They did convince me of the validity of her
ability, by all means. Again, another Truth (to me and others who
participated), but no direct answers that could be used in a court of
law.
Several "psychics" performed "life readings" for me. They included wide
generalizations, but were unable to give direct, straightforward answers
to simple questions. If genuine (and who am I to say they are not?)
these psychics must be definitely limited in their specific perception.
Either that, or they sutler problems in translation from symbols to
articulation. I can well appreciate how this latter might occur.
It was in my readings and contacts with this branch of human thought I
fondly call the underground that I finally found strong glimmerings of
what was happening to me. If I hadn't been involved personally, I would
not have believed what I found. At the same time, it was comforting to
discover that I was not unique.
What was it all about? Simply, I was performing "astral projection." Dr.
Bradshaw had given me the clue, although he himself had heard about such
things only remotely. Astral projection, to the uninitiated, is a term
given to the technique of leaving one's physical body temporarily and
moving about in a non衫aterial or "astral" body. Many connotations have
been given the word "astral," and many interpretations, scientific and
otherwise. The word "scientific" is used cautiously, because the modern
scientific world, in the West, at least, neither recognizes nor is
seriously aware of even the possibility of such things.
In the obscure history of mankind, it is an entirely different matter.
The word "astral" has dim origins in early mystical and occult events
which involve witchcraft, sorcery, incantations, and other seeming
foolishness which modem man looks upon as silly and superstitious
nonsense. As no attempt was made to delve deeply into this area, I still
don't know what the word "astral" means. Thus I prefer to stick to the
terms "Second Body" and "Second State."
This type of literature, which still flourishes, depicts an astral world
composed of many levels or planes, which is where people go when they
"die." The person who travels around in his astral body can make short
visits to these places, talk with "dead" people, participate in
activities "there," and come back to tie physical body apparently none
the worse for wear. There have been times when I have fervently hoped
(prayed!) for the latter to be true.
In order to perform this miraculous feat, one had to be arduously
trained, or, better still, "spiritually developed," according to the
occultists. These teachings have supposedly been handed down secretly
through history to enlighten those who had become advanced enough to
receive them. Evidently, from time to time, there were those who
revealed the secret or accidently learned the technique. In the past,
they have been canonized, castigated, cremated, laughed at, and locked
up for such public revelation. This doesn't make the future seem very
promising, in my case.
Paradoxically, much of the data contained in my notes tends to confirm
this occult approach to the subject趴hich came as quite a shock. Using
liberal interpretation and translation into the modern idiom, much of it
fell neatly into place. Also, much was left unsaid, although I do not
know why.
According to the literature of the psychic underground, the religious
mystical history of man constantly makes reference to this Second Body.
Long before Christianity and the Bible appeared, cultures in Egypt,
India, and China, to name a few, held the Second Body idea as standard
operating procedure. Historians have found these references again and
again, but evidently consigned them to the mythology of the times.

If one reads the Bible from this point of view, the belief is confirmed
many times in both the Old and New Testaments. In the Catholic Church
are found consistent reports of saints and other religious figures
having such experiences, some of them willfully. Even in Protestantism,
devout followers have reported the out觔f苑ody experience during some
form of religious ecstasy.
In the Orient, the concept of a Second Body has long held a natural and
accepted position of reality. Again, this is an entire study in itself,
and there are numerous underground books and authorities on oriental
cultures that affirm the concept of a Second Body. There are supposed to
be in existence today those adepts, lamas, monks, gurus, and the like
who exercise mental and physical powers虹ncluding Second Body activity
that are completely at odds with present scientific knowledge. Largely,
these have been ignored in our materialistic society because they can't
be duplicated in the laboratory.
In the files of various psychic research organizations here and abroad,
there are hundreds of case虐istory reports of out觔f苑ody experiences.
Such reports go back at least a hundred years, and many more are found
in various writings of the past. They are there for anyone who wishes to
investigate the phenomenon.
Virtually all of such reported experiences are spontaneous one負ime觔nly
events. Usually, they have come at a time when the individual was either
physically ill or debilitated, or during an intense emotional crisis.
All seem to be highly subjective, yet the great mass of these reports is
evidential in itself. During this century, several impressive
collections of these experiences have been published and should be re
quired reading if one pursues the subject. The weakness in all of them
is apparent: most are basically reportorial, supplemented by conjecture.
No specifics based upon direct examination or experimentation are
included. Reason? Evidently, there has been no such solid research
performed.
In very rare instances there are published records of individuals who
could deliberately and willfully induce the Second State and move about
in their Second Body. There may be more, but only two stand out in
recent history. If others have and are performing this act, they have
kept the results to themselves.
The first of these is Oliver Fox, an Englishman who was active in
psychic research and practices. He published fairly detailed reports of
out觔f苑ody experiences and techniques for achieving this state. Except
in the underground of 1920, his work received little attention. Yet he
very definitely attempted to bring the experience into the framework of
understanding of his era.
The second and most well虺nown was Sylvan Muldoon, who published several
works on the subject in collaboration with Hereward Carrington, over the
period 19381. Muldoon was the "projectionist" and Carrington was a
consistent researcher in psychic phenomena. To date, their books have
been the classics in the field, and offer interesting reading. In my
after負he苯act investigation, I again wondered at much that obviously
had been omitted. Also, little or no empirical experimental tests were
made to provide data for a serious yet objective investigator. The most
recent has been a book by the author Yram. (A woman? Mary backward?) It
too offered several clues, but no solid continuity relating to my case.
Significant attempts at scientific study and evaluation have been made
recently by several noteworthy men, such as Hornell Hart, Nandor Fodor,
Robert Crookall, and others with good academic backgrounds. Most of
these are relatively free of the distorting factors present in so much
of the underground literature, and their titles will be found along with
other recent publications in the Bibliography. All serve to verify the
fact of the existence of the Second Body, but bring forth little or no
concrete data at the experimental, non計hilosophic level. Again, how can

one discuss experiments that have not taken place?
The most consistent problem encountered in associating with the
underground has been to avoid submergence of the analytical approach in
the vast morass of theological thought and belief. Once, not too long
ago, man thought electricity was God; before that, the sun, lightning,
and fire. Our sciences told us these ideas were ridiculous, and tried to
show us through experimentation. Perhaps the Second Body operating in
the Second State can provide the quantum jump to prove God empirically.
Then there will be no more underground.
The psychic underground provided me with many new friends, but few
specific answers to such questions as, What do I do now? To my surprise,
they looked to me for answers.
There appeared to be only one remaining path to take. Hundreds of
experiments spread over twelve years, and still continuing, have brought
forth conclusions that seem inescapable yet alien to my environmental
conditioning. In the material to come, the test will be yours.

3. ON THE EVIDENCE
In the fall of 1964 an interesting meeting was held one evening in Los
Angeles. It was composed of some twenty assorted psychiatrists,
psychologists, scientists, et al苔nd myself. It was a most rewarding
evening. The purpose of the meeting was to examine with sincerity and
seriousness Hie experiences and experiments which have been condensed
herein. After several hours of interrogation by the group, it was my
turn. I asked two simple questions of each of them:
"If you were going through what I have been experiencing, what would you
do?"
It was the definite opinion of the majority衫ore than two thirds負hat
every effort should be made to continue, such experimentation in the
hope of enlightening and expanding man's knowledge of himself. Several
half seriously stated that I should run, not walk, to the nearest
psychiatrist. (None present offered his services.)
The second question: "Would you, personally, take part in experiments
that would lead to the creation of such unusual activity in yourself?"
Here, the pattern changed somewhat. About half stated their willingness
to participate. Oddly, in this group were some of those who were most
skeptical of the reality of such experiences. Of course, this gave me
the opportunity to nudge gently those who were in favor of continued
experiments. When it came to the dive into the cold, strange waters, let
someone else do it And in many ways, I don't blame them. If presented to
me twelve years ago, I doubt that I would have volunteered.
Why did the group bother to assemble? Curiosity, perhaps. Or again, it
may have been some of the evidential material that had been accumulated,
I hope the latter. Here are some of the key reports from the notes,
which aroused their interest.
9/10/58 Afternoon
Again, I floated upward, with the intent of visiting Dr. Bradshaw and
his wife. Realizing that Dr. Bradshaw was ill in bed with a cold, I
thought I would visit him in the bedroom, which was a room I had not
seen in his house and if I could describe it later, could thus document
my visit. Again came the turning in air, the dive into the tunnel, and
this time the sensation of going uphill (Dr. and Mrs, Bradshaw live in a
house some five miles from my office, up a hill). I was over trees and
there was a light sky above. Momentarily, I saw (in the sky?) a figure
of a rounded human form, seemingly dressed in robes and a headpiece on
his head (an oriental concept remains), sitting, arms in lap, perhaps
cross衍egged a la Buddha; then it faded. I don't know the meaning of
this. After a while, the uphill travel became difficult, and I had the
feeling that the energy was leaving, and I felt I wouldn't make it.
With this thought, an amazing thing happened. It felt precisely as if
someone had placed a hand under each arm and lifted me. I felt a surge
of lifting power, and I rushed quickly up the hill. Then I came upon Dr.
and Mrs. Brad貞how. They were outside the house, and for a moment I was
confused, as I had reached them before I got to the house. I didn't
understand this because Dr. Bradshaw was supposed to be in bed. Dr.
Bradshaw was dressed in light overcoat and hat, his wife in a dark coat
and all dark clothes. They were coming toward me, so I stopped. They
seemed in good spirits, and walked past me unseeing, in the direction of
a smaller building, like a garage, Brad trailing behind as they walked.
I floated around in front of them, waving, trying to get their attention
without result. Then without turning his head, I thought I heard Dr.
Bradshaw say to me, "Well, I see you don't need help any more." Thinking
I had made contact, I dove back into the ground (?), and returned to the
office, rotated into the body and opened my eyes. Everything was just as
I had left it. The vibration was still present, but I felt I had enough
for one day.
Important aftermath: We phoned Dr. and Mrs, Bradshaw that evening. I

made no statement other than to ask where they were between four and
five that afternoon. (My wife, upon hearing of the visit, said flatly it
was not possible, could not be so because Dr. Bradshaw was home in bed
sick.) With Mrs. Bradshaw on the phone, I asked the simple question. She
stated that roughly at four twenty苯ive they were walking out of the
house toward the garage. She was going to the post office, and Dr.
Bradshaw had decided that perhaps some fresh air might help him, and had
dressed and gone along. She knew the time by back苞hecking from the time
they arrived at the post office, which was twenty minutes to five. It
takes roughly fifteen minutes to drive to the post office from their
house. I had come back from my trip to them at approximately four
twenty貞even. I asked what they were wearing. Mrs. Bradshaw stated she
was wearing black slacks, and a red sweater which was covered with a
black car coat. Dr. Bradshaw was wearing a light hat and a light苞olored
topcoat. However, neither "saw" me in any way or were aware of my
presence. Dr. Bradshaw had no memory of saying anything to me. The great
point is that I had expected to find him in bed, and didn't.
The coincidences involved were too much. It was not important to prove
this to anyone else. Only to me. It proves to me負ruly for the first
time負hat there might well be more to this than normal science and
psychology and psychiatry allow衫ore than an aberration, trauma, or
hallucinationand 1 needed some form of proof more than anyone else, I
am sure. It is a simple incident, but unforgettable.
In this visit to Dr. Bradshaw and his wife, the time of visit coincides
with the physical event. The autosuggestion hallucination factor is
negative. I expected to find Dr. Bradshaw in bed in the house, but did
not do so and was puzzled by the inconsistency. Identical reports with
conditions of actual events:
(1) Location of Dr. Bradshaw and his wife.
(2) Position of the two relative to each other.
(3) The actions of the two.
(4) Wearing apparel of the two.
Possibility of unconscious preknowledge through earlier observation of
the above:
(1) Negative, had no information of their change in plans or time habits
of post office visits.
(2) Indeterminate, consciously at least unaware of who walks first.
(3) Negative, would have no preknowledge of their walking across to the
garage in such fashion.
(4) Indeterminate, may have observed both in similar dress, but expected
to find only one (Dr. Bradshaw), in bedclothes.
3/5/59 Morning
In a motel in Winston范alem: I woke up early and went out to have
breakfast at seven負hirty, then returned to my room about eight負hirty
and lay down. As I relaxed, the vibrations came and then an impression
of movement. Shortly thereafter, I stopped, and the first thing 1 saw
was a boy walking along and tossing a baseball in the air and catching
it. A quick shift, and I saw a man trying to put something into the back
seat of a car, a large sedan. The thing was an awkward衍ooking device
that I interpreted to be a small car with wheels and electric motor. The
man twisted and turned the device and finally got it into the back seat
of the car and slammed the door. Another quick shift, and I was standing
beside a table. There were people sitting around the table, and dishes
covered it. One person was dealing what looked like large white playing
cards around to the others at the table. I thought it strange to play
cards at a table so covered with dishes, and wondered about the
overlarge size and whiteness of the cards. Another quick shift, and I
was over city streets, about five hundred feet high, looking for "home"

Then 1 spotted the radio tower, and remembered that the motel was close
to the tower, and almost instantly I was back in my body. I sat up and
looked around. Everything seemed normal.
Important aftermath: The same evening, I visited some friends, Mr. and
Mrs. Agnew Bahnson, at their home. They were partially aware of my
"activities," and on a sudden hunchr I knew the morning event had to do
with them. I asked about their son, and they called him into the room
and asked him what he was doing between eight負hirty and nine that
morning. He said he was going to school. When asked more specifically
what he was doing as he went, he said he was tossing his baseball in the
air and catching it. (Although I knew him well, I had no knowledge that
the boy was interested in baseball, although this could be assumed.)
Next, I decided to speak about the loading of the car. Mr. Bahnson was
astounded. Exactly at that time, he told me, he was loading a Van
DeGraff generator into the back seat of his car. The generator was a
large, awkward device with wheels, an electric motor, and a platform. He
showed me the device. (It was eerie to see physically something you had
observed only from the Second Body.) Next, I told about the table and
the large white cards. His wife 趴as excited at this one. It seems that
for the first time in two years, because they had all arisen late, she
had brought the morning mail to the breakfast table and had passed out
the letters to them as she sorted the mail. Large white playing cards!
They were very excited over the event, and I am sure they were not
humoring me.
In this morning visit to Mr. Bahnson and his family, the time of visit
coincides with actual events. Autosuggestion hallucination, negative; no
conscious intent of visit, although unconscious motivation possible.
Identical reports with conditions of actual events:
(1) Son walking down the street tossing ball in air.
(2) Mr. Bahnson at car.
(3) Mr. Bahnson's actions at car.
(4) Device he had at car.
(5) Action of Mrs. Bahnson at table, the dealing of "cards."
(6) Card size and white color.
(7) Dishes on table.
Possibility of unconscious preknowledge through earlier observation of
the above:
(1) Negative, unaware of son's interest in baseball, and not conscious
of his basic activities.
(2) Negative, had no knowledge of Mr. Bahnson's actions in morning
around car, and reported action was not part of his daily routine.
(3) Negative, as indicated such actions were not routine, i.e., loading
of car, thus could not be part of preobserved habit patterns of Mr.
Bahnson.
(4) Indeterminate, possible that device had been observed previously but
not in location indicated.
(5) Negative, no part of preobservation memory, as Mrs. Bahnson did not
make habit of such action; sorting mail at table was unusual event.
(6) Negative, for reasons just given, coupled with no such habits in own
life pattern of sorting mail at table, plus misinterpretation of action
itself.
(7) Indeterminate, preobservation could have been applied here in
relation to the Bahnson family, as writer had taken breakfast there
several times.
10/12/60 Night
The results are so contradictory to what 1 believed that it must be

reported in detail. In our attempts to find some answers, anywhere, we
had come in contact with Mrs. M., who purportedly had mediumistic
powers. I have and still have the highest regard for her as a person of
great kindness and integrity. However, in two "sittings" in which we
participated, I came away with the definite impression that Mrs. M.t
although deeply sincere, was acting out some form of split personality
when she went into a trance. The "guides" who took over her body(?) and
spoke through her vocal cords were to me nothing more or less than mani
festations of this. This implied not that I thought Mrs. M. deliberately
created this illusion, but that it happened as a result of a self
induced hypnotic state, and she truly had no knowledge of what took
place, I was sure that in no way was Mrs. M. attempting to "fake." She
wasn't and isn't that type of person.
What left me unconvinced was that when I had asked her guides虐er dead
husband and an American Indian苞ertain questions as they spoke through
her, I received evasive replies. The best I could get was, "You will
discover this through your own sources." This at the time seemed to me
to be a simple way to avoid an answer that could be verified in other
ways. It is important that 1 point out my complete skepticism of Mrs. M.
and her guides.
Yet what happened last night and the report today utterly confuses me.
R.G., a friend of Mrs. M., had suggested that I attempt to "visit" a
seance to be held by Mrs. M. in a New York apartment Friday night (last
night). I half agreed, stating that I certainly wasn't sure that it was
possible. Frankly, when Friday night came, the meeting had slipped my
mind (consciously at least).
Here is what took place. After a normal evening at home, my wife and I
went up to bed around eleven負hirty. My wife fell asleep almost
immediately, as I could tell from her steady, deep breathing. As I lay
there, evidently deeply relaxed and possibly half苔sleep, I suddenly
felt that "walking over your grave" coldness and the hairs on the back
of my neck started to rise. I looked across the half苓arkened roomt
fearful yet utterly fascinated. I don't know what I expected, but stand
ing in the doorway leading from the hall was a white ghostlike figure.
It actually looked like the traditional figure of a ghost貞ome six feet
tall as it stood there, with a flowing sheetlike material draping it
from its head to the fioor. One hand was reaching out and holding onto
the door jamb.
I was completely frightened, and I had no chance to connect the figure
with anything I had done. The moment it began to move toward me, I
cringed in half負error and at the same time felt I had to see what it
was. Almost immediately I felt hands placed over my eyes so I couldn't
see. I kept putting the hands away in spite of my fear until finally the
ghostlike form was beside the bed, not a foot away from me. Then someone
took hold of my upper arms, gently, and I moved up out of the bed. With
this, I calmed down, evidently because I felt that whatever it was, it
was friendly. I didn't struggle or resist.
Immediately, there was a quick sense of movement and we (I then felt
there were two of them, one on each side) were suddenly over a small
room, as if we were looking down on it from the ceiling. In the room
below were four women. I looked at the two beings on each side of me.
One was a blond male, the other dark虐aired, almost oriental. Both
seemed to be quite young, in their early twenties. They were smiling at
me.
I spoke to them and said they would have to excuse my attitudes as I was
uncertain of what I was doing. Then I floated down to the only empty
chair and sat down in it. A tall large woman in a dark suit sat opposite
me. A woman in what looked like an ankle衍ength white robe sat next to
me. The other two were indistinct. A woman's voice asked if I would
remember that I had been there, and I assured her that I certainly

would. Another woman said something about cancer, but that is all I
could get.
Then one of the women (the one in the dark suit) came over and swung
over the side of my chair, and draped herself right on top of me! I
didn't feel her weight, but for some reason, she got up suddenly. There
was laughter, but my mind was on other things. Evidently, the contact
with the woman who sat on top of me had altered things. Just at that
moment, I heard a male voice said, "I think he's been away long enough;
we'd better take him back."
I was torn between going and staying, but didn't argue. Almost
instantly, I was back lying in my bed and that was it 苟xcept that my
wife had been awake during the entire time. She stated that I
alternately gasped, made moaning and 趴himpering noises, and then seemed
to do little or no breathing at all. Other than that, she hadn't seen or
heard anything, except that our cat asleep in the room had awakened and
had been extremely nervous. My wife was quite upset and worried. I'm
sure 1 would have been too, if I had gone through the same with her.
The "meeting" certainly deserved checking, so I phoned R.G. and
discovered several things. First, there were four women at the stance.
At my request, they were gathered together at the same apartment (very
small living room) wearing the same clothes. The woman in the dark suit
was of identical build as I saw, and she inadvertently "sat" in the
chair "reserved" for me. This had taken place later in the evening,
after eleven負hirty, when the stance had been long over, and the four
were sitting around talking. The tall woman had jumped up out of "my"
chair when the rest called out, "Don't sit on Bob!" They laughed at the
joke. One of the other women had worn a long white housecoat. The words
about my remembering were not spoken orally (that supermind com
munication again?), but one of the women had stated she was working at
Cancer Memorial Hospital the following day. I had met the other two
women previously, Mrs. M. and R.G., but the two herein described were
then strangers to me. Four women, the clothes of two, the build of one,
the sitting in the chair, the sitting on top of me and jumping up, the
laughter, the small room, the "cancer" reference負hat's too much co
incidence even for me, and beyond my ability to hallucinate that
properly. I'm convinced.
But the two men. Does Mrs. M. truly communicate with her dead husband
and an Indian? I didn't know until afterward that he had been a blond! I
must be less of a skeptic and more open衫inded with Mrs. M.
In the visit to the apartment, time coincides with the physical event.
Autosuggestion hallucination, indeterminate, as idea of trip may have
been retained unconsciously, although no conscious attempt was made.
Identical reports with conditions of actual events:
(1) Size of room.
(2) Number of women present, four.
(3) Empty chair.
(4) Apparel of two women.
(5) "Cancer" mention.
(6) Action of woman sitting in chair.
(7) Laughter attitude of group.
Possibility of unconscious preknowledge through earlier observation of
the above:
(1) Negative, no previous visits or descriptions of apartment.
(2) Indeterminate, R.G. may have revealed number of
people to be present
(3) Negative, idea of empty chair came to group only during that same
evening.

(4) Negative, had never met women before nor observed
their dress.
(5) Negative, for same reasons just given. Would have no knowledge of
unknown woman's work at Cancer Memorial Hospital.
(6) Negative, as action was unplanned.
(7) Negative, as reaction of others was spontaneous.
8/15/63 Afternoon
A productive experiment after a long layoff! R.W., a businesswoman whom
I know quite well through long work association, and a close friend
aware of my "activities'' (but somewhat skeptical still, in spite of
rather unwilling participation), has been away this week on her vacation
up on the New Jersey coast. I do not know exactly where she is vaca
tioning other than that. Nor did I inform her of any planned experiment,
simply because I hadn't thought of it until today (Saturday). This
afternoon, I lay down to renew experimentation, and decided I would make
a strong effort to "visit" R.W. wherever she was. (Rule one in my case
always has been that I am most successful going to someone I know .well
and the opportunity does not come up too often.) I lay down in the
bedroom about three in the afternoon, went into a relaxation pattern,
felt the warmth (high order vibrations), then thought heavily of the
desire to "go" to R.W.
There was the familiar sensation of movement through a light blue
blurred area, then I was in what seemed to be a. kitchen. R.W. was
seated in a chair to the right. She had a glass in her hand. She was
looking to my left, where two girls (about seventeen or eighteen, one
blond and one brunette) also were sitting, each with glasses in their
hands, drinking something. The three of them were in conversation, but I
could not hear what they were saying.
I first approached the two girls, directly in front of them, but I could
not attract their attention. I then turned to R.W., and I asked if she
knew I was there.
"Oh yes, I know you are here" she replied (mentally, or with that
superconscious communication, as she was still in oral conversation with
the two girls).
I asked if she was sure that she would remember that I had been there.
"Oh, I will definitely remember," the reply came.
I said that this time I was going to make sure that she remembered.
"I will remember, I'm sure I will" R.W. said, still in oral conversation
simultaneously.
I stated that I had to be sure she would remember, so I was going to
pinch her.
"Oh, you don't need to do that, Til remember" R.W. said hastily.
I said I had to be sure, so I reached over and tried to pinch her,
gently, 1 thought. I pinched her in the side, just above the hips and
below the rib cage. She let out a good loud "Ow," and I backed up,
because I was somewhat surprised. I really hadn't expected to be able
actually to pinch her. Satisfied that I had made some impression, at the
least, I turned and left, thought of the physical, and was back almost
immediately. I got up (physically!), and went over to the typewriter
where I am now. R.W. will not be back until Monday, and then I can
determine if I made the contact, or if it was another unidentifiable
miss. Time of return, three thirty苯ive.
Important aftermath: It is Tuesday after the Saturday of the experiment.
R.W. returned to work yesterday, and I asked her what she had been doing
Saturday afternoon between three and four. Knowing my reason for asking,
she said she would have to think about it and let me know on Tuesday
(today). Here is what she reported today: On Saturday between three and
four was the only time there was not a crowd of people in the beach
cottage where she was staying. For the first time, she was alone with

her niece (dark虐aired, about eighteen) and the niece's friend (about
the same age, blond). They were in the kitchen苓ining area of the
cottage from about three苯ifteen to four, and she was having a drink,
and the girls were having Cokes. They were doing nothing but sitting and
talking.
I asked R.W. if she remembered anything else, and she said no. I
questioned her more closely, but she could not remember anything more.
Finally, in impatience, I asked her if she remembered the pinch. A look
of complete astonishment crossed her face.
"Was that you?" She stared at me for a moment, then went into the
privacy of my office, turned, and lifted (just slightly!) the edge of
her sweater where it joined her skirt on her left side. There were two
brown and blue marks at exactly the spot where I had pinched her.
"I was sitting there, talking to the girls" R.W. said, "when all of a
sudden I felt this terrible pinch. 1 must have jumped a foot. I thought
my brother虹n衍aw had come back and sneaked up behind me. I turned
around, but there was no one there. I never had any idea it was you! It
hurt!"
I apologized for pinching so hard, and she obtained from me a promise
that if I tried any such thing again, I would try something other than a
pinch that hard.
In this episode, the time coincides with the actual events.
Autosuggestion hallucination, indeterminate, as willful desire was
suggested, and preknowledge was present of general location of R.W. at
that time. Identical reports with conditions of actual events:
(1) Location (inside rather than outside).
(2) Number of people present.
(3) Description of girls.
(4) Actions of people present.
(5) The acknowledgment of pinching.
(6) Physical marks from pinching.
Possibility of unconscious preknowledge through earlier ob貞ervation of
the above:
(1) Negative, preknowledge implied activity outdoors on beach rather
than indoors.
(2) Negative, preknowledge implied adults in group, as R.W. was visiting
sister and brother虹n衍aw.
(3) Negative虹ndeterminate, possibility of preknowledge of niece and
hair color through R.W. sometime previously, negative as to friend of
niece, her hair color and age.
(4) Negative, no preknowledge of non苟xistent habit pattern for that
particular moment of day.
(5) Negative, R.W. had no preknowledge of experimental attempt as no
such attempt had been made previously, nor was experimenter in habit of
pinching R.W. Had not done so previously.
(6) Negative, no possible way that R.W. could have known where pinch
marks should have occurred to conform with area reported.
There are additional evidential reports, some of which have been
included in other portions of this writing where they may help
illustrate certain areas of "theory and practice.'* One or two have been
attempted under laboratory conditions.
The incidents may have been simple and unimportant in themselves, but as
minute pieces in a mosaic, they were vital. The emerging pattern through
the glimpses of the whole was made believable and acceptable to me only
through the inclusion of hundreds of such scraps of evidence. Perhaps it
may be to you, too.


4. THE HERE胤OW
One of the most common questions that arises during any discussion of
the Second Body and the Second State is: Where do you go? In evaluation
of all experiments, there evolved what seemed to be three Second State
environments. The first of these was identified as Locale I, for lack of
a better nomenclature. More appropriately, it could be called the "Here
Now."
Locale I is the most believable. It consists of people and places that
actually do exist in the material, well虺nown world at the very moment
of the experiment. It is the world represented to us by our physical
senses which most of us are fairly sure does exist. Visits to Locale I
while in the Second Body should not contain strange beings, events, or
places. Unfamiliar, perhaps, but not strange and unknown. If the latter
is the case, then perception is distorted.
Thus it is that the only evidential results provable by standard methods
of confirmation have taken place while moving about via the Second Body
in Locale I. All of the experiments in Chapter 3 were made in Locale I.
Even so, these and others in the same category are pitifully few in
proportion to all the recorded experiments. On the surface, it seems
quite simple. Get out of the physical and into the Second, then go visit
George and make contact, come back into the physical and report. Nothing
to it
If only it were that easy! Yet the factors present that make it
difficult are recognizable. Recognition of a problem presumes an
eventual solution one way or another, and perhaps it will be so in this
field.
Let us take first the factors of direction and identification. Suppose,
for example, fully conscious and in your physical body, you were able to
soar through the air rather than walk on the ground or ride in a car.
You discovered this ability, and decided to fly over to George's house
to demonstrate how it works. Your house or your laboratory is on the
outskirts of a large city. George lives in a subdivision on the other
side of town.
On a sunny afternoon, you start off. Naturally, you rise high in the air
so as to avoid obstacles of trees, buildings, etc. Uncertain, you don't
go too high. You want to be able to recognize landmarks which might be
difficult to see from five thousand feet. Therefore, you stay low, about
a hundred feet off the ground. Now, which way to go. You look for points
of familiarity. It is at that moment you realize you have a problem. You
don't have a compass course to George's house, and it wouldn't do you
any good if you did. You don't have a compass. Undaunted, you decide to
cut across the city, using the familiar buildings and streets as
guideposts. You have driven the route many times, so you should find
your way easily.
You start off over houses and streets, and almost immediately you become
confused. The familiar has suddenly become unfamiliar. You look back,
and you have difficulty finding your own house even at close range. It
takes a moment to realize why this is so. You have been earthbound, and
your entire point of view has been from a level of less than six feet.
Most of the time, we habitually look straight ahead or downward. Only
occasionally do we look up, when something attracts our attention. Even
such an upward衍ooking angle of vision has little relationship to
looking down from one hundred feet. How long would it take for you to
recognize your own home if you were shown a photograph taken from
directly overhead? The same applies to all "familiar" surroundings,
streets, buildings, cities, and people.
You may get to George's house, but it will take you a long time. You may
not identify it from a distance of fifty feet because you know only the
appearance of the front of his house, and you approach it from the back.
It is not a failing peculiar to you. Pilots of aircraft, their attention

diverted for a moment, have become "lost" within two miles of the
airport when flying at low level in bright daylight. For a moment,
everything below is completely unfamiliar. Only navigational instruments
can bring the quick orientation needed.
It is easy to see how this problem can be compounded when your friend
George lives in another city some distance away, where you have never
visited, and when you have not seen pictures of the house. Of course, if
he painted a fluorescent yellow "X" on the roof, with a ten衫illion
candle計ower beacon of light, with similar markers on streets and
highways along the route, you just might make it.
Now let's take the same trip in the Second Body and examine it
comparatively. Again, you are overhead one hundred feet, floating in the
air, this time with no physical body. It is a bright sunny day, but your
"seeing" is somewhat impaired. You still are not fully accustomed to the
technique of "how" you are seeing. As a result, your vision is distorted
in one way or another. You can work your way slowly from over your home
to George's house much as you would if in the physical body. It would be
the same slow process under less favorable visual conditions.
There is a better, faster way. Happily, there seem to be built虹n
directional senses if their use can be mastered. The "if" is the catch.
As noted elsewhere, you "think" of the person at the end of your
destination要ever a place, but a person苔nd use the method prescribed.
In a few moments, you are there. You can watch the landscape move under
you if you wish, but it's a little disconcerting when you rush headlong
toward a building or tree and go right through it. In order to avoid
such traumas, forget about seeing during the traveling process. You
never quite get over the physical苑ody conditioning that such things are
solid. At least I have not. I still have the tendency to move in the
direction of the door to leave, only to realize again the situation when
my Second Body hand goes through the doorknob. Irritated with myself, I
then dive through the wall rather than the door to reinforce my
awareness of the Second State characteristics.
In conjunction with this convenient homing instinct that is unaffected
by distance, you are faced with a further problem, which is that the
automatic navigational system is too accurate. It works by what and of
whom you think. Let one small stray thought emerge dominantly for just
one microsecond, and your course is deviated. Add to this the fact that
your conscious mind may be in conflict with the superconscious as to
what should be that destination, and you can begin to appreciate why so
many experiments to produce Locale I evidential data have ended in
failure. It sometimes causes one to ponder how there have been any such
results when the difficulties are considered.
As an experiment, try to concentrate for just one minute upon a single
action or event or thing which you "dislike" emotionally and
intellectually (the superconscious expressing its will) without the
intrusion of any unrelated thought. It takes something more than
practice, as you will discover.
Here are some examples of misdirection, caused by an interrupting
thought, taken from the notes:
4/12/63 Late Afternoon
Temp. 40s, humidity low, barometer high. Utilized countdown technique,
warm sensation surged in on thirty觔ne count. Disassociated easily,
under plan to visit a friend. Used stretch觔ut method, seemed to travel
unusually long for three衫ile trip. . . . Then I stopped. 1 looked to
see where I was, and found I was sitting on the edge of the roof of a
two貞tory house, with what seemed to be the back yard below me. There
was a woman working in the yard, with a broom in her hand. As I watched,
she turned to walk into the house. Just as she was about to enter,
something made her look up directly at me. With a frightened start, she
scuttled into the house, slamming the door. I felt that I should leave,

embarrassed at having frightened the woman. I used the physical movement
return signal, and came back easily, entering the physical without
difficulty. Time away, seven minutes, ten seconds. Comment: Wonder what
she saw sitting on the eave. Also, why this destination? Evidently
concentration failure again.
6/29/60 Late Evening
Temp. 70s, humidity medium, barometer average, physically tired. Blood
flow surge came at hold觔ff point before sleep, under plan to visit Dr.
Andrija Puharich somewhere in California. Moved blindly for a short
period, then stopped. Four people were seated around a table, three men
and a boy of about eleven. Obviously not Dr. Puharich, unless unusual
situation. I asked where they were, what was the location, town or
state. There was no answer to my query, and I sensed wariness and
caution on their parts. I asked again, and the boy turned and evidently
was about to reply when one of the men said, "Don't tell him!"
Evidently, they were afraid of me for some reason. I apologized for my
nervousness and explained I was still new to the non計hysical business,
turned, and left, not wishing to make them uncomfortable. Return to
physical uneventful. Time away, eighteen minutes. Comment: No con
nection with Dr. Puharich's activities at the time, as he reports.
Wrong destination again, no validation possible. Why does my presence
create such fear?
This inability to control destination has been and still remains the
chief barrier to the production of consistency and repeatability. The
results of such attempts have brought many intrusions similar to the
above, and many follow a similar pattern. Here is one that brought
evidential data, although the persons involved were and are unaware of
their participation:
11/27/62 Morning
Temp. 405, humidity medium, barometer below average, physically rested.
Went into relaxation countdown, used sex center mental pattern with
oral breathing to create condition. Used peel觔ff to get out of body,
just as if outer layer of physical were being removed, then free and
floating in room. Plan was to go to Agnew Bahnson. Started trip slowly
to observe surroundings as much as possible. Went slowly through west
wall, feeling texture of each layer of material in watt, then into
another room, furnished as a living room, then into a third room,
another living room, all unoccupied, and speed became faster. Nothing
was visible but gray苑lack blur. Stiff concentrating on Mr. Bahnson,
finally stopped. Was in normal貞ized room, bedroom, with three people
in it. There was a large bed to the right, and two adults lay on it. A
little girl, about five or six, was sitting on the floor beside the
bed, to the left of it. The little girl looked directly at me and said
excitedly, "1 know what you are!'
I turned to her, as gently and warmly as I could so as not to frighten
her, and said, "You do? Good! What am I?" She was not at all afraid
when she said, "You're an astral projection!" (She may have used
another term such as "ghost," but it was definite understanding on her
part, one way or another.) I asked her where she lived and what year it
was, but she couldn't give me an answer so I turned to the two on the
bed. I tried to be careful to avoid making them afraid or nervous, but
it was obvious that they were. I asked them what year it was, but they
didn't seem to understand (no time concept in the superconscious?). I
concentrated on the man, and asked his name and where he lived. He
replied nervously. 1 moved away as he became more disturbed, and looked
out the window for area identification. Outside the window was a small
roof, such as over a porch. Beyond was a street, with many trees and a

grassy island strip in the middle. There was a car parked at the curb,
a dark苞olored sedan.
I sensed a need to return to the physical, and turned back to the three
people. I asked if they would like to see me "take off" and the little
girl was eager, and the two adults appeared relieved. I used stretch
technique, shot up through the ceiling, and returned to the physical
without problems. Reason for recall: Throat dry from oral breathing.
Time away, forty負wo minutes. Comment: Through a check by phone, I have
located this family at the address which the man gave me. Would it be
appropriate to visit them physically on some pretext?
From this, it can be seen that a much more extensive and organized
effort would be required for massive validation of Second Body
activities in Locale I. One subject and several assorted scientists and
psychiatrists are not enough. Also, it can be noted that unexpected
visits to unprepared persons can't be helped at this stage of control.
Perhaps much could be gained if such people could be interviewed as to
what they saw and felt at the time of the intrusion. The difficulty
lies in locating these people. It is the exception that enough data is
obtained to identify the place visited, as in the above.
Also, it is interesting when possible to determine the inconsistencies
of observation of Locale I activities while in the Second State. Except
in unusual instances, most "visual" input registers in shadings of
black and white.'This seems true under any lighting conditions.
However, strong light and shadow create wrong perceptions. For example,
a strong light reflecting from the dark hair of a man brings the
impression that he is blond rather than dark. For example, from the
notes:
5/5/61
Temp. 6os, humidity high, barometer medium, physically neutral. After
dinner, early evening, in planned attempt to visit Dr. Puharich used
breathing jaw technique for relaxation, obtained vibration state after
some difficulty via 90reach觔ut technique. Applied simple mental
lift觔ut, and concentrated mental desire to visit Dr. Puharich, After
short trip, stopped in room. There was a long narrow table, with
several chairs, and bookshelves. There was a man sitting at the table,
writing on paper. He resembled Dr. Puharich, but he was more light or
blond虐aired. I greeted him, and he looked up and smiled, then stated
that he would spend more time on our project, apologizing for being so
neglectful. I said I understood, then felt uneasiness to return to the
physical, and explained I had to leave. He stated that he realized my
need for caution, and I turned and quickly headed back to the physical.
Re苟ntered without difficulty, with right arm circulation down from
lying on it awkwardly, which was evident reason for recall. Comment: In
checking with Dr. Puharich, the locale was right, and actions were
correct, but he has no memory of visit. Strong overhead light may have
caused the reflection of "blond."
The preceding also illustrates the problem of communication. Dr.
Puharich, awake and aware that specific attempts to "visit" him were
being made, had no conscious recollection of any such meeting. All other
factors checked accurately, except for the reported "conversation." This
has happened so frequently in such instances that it became the source
of much discussion. At first, it was suggested that I was fantasizing
these communications. It seemed probable that in so doing, I was merely
calling upon my knowledge of the visitee
苔t the unconscious level負o create an "authentic" conversation. This
theory received a setback when a number of such communications brought
out data known only to the second party.

Still another difficulty of Locale I travel lies in the time factor.
Inconveniently, the best periods for deep relaxation so necessary to
create the Second State occur late at night. Therefore, it is quite
natural to take advantage of such instances when possible. Less effort
is required, and the separation is much more rapid. However, the
physiological and psychological conditions that help induce the state
are unpredictable and not known fully. This inconsistency brought
numerous occasions when experimentation for purely evidential data ended
in failure. The person to be visited was performing no reportable act
other than lying in bed sound asleep. These were discounted completely
as evidence. Most people perform this "act" every night.
Similarly, attempts at validation during daylight hours brought their
share of complications. With no promise of "contact" at a specific
minute or hour, most people involved went about their normal affairs.
Thus when such "visits" were made, they were not necessarily discovered
in a unique or unusual act or condition. As a result, the small,
normally inconsequential acts observed during these visits often were
but vague memories to the contactee when confirmation was needed. We
have a great tendency to forget details of routine actions in life. You
can prove this to yourself. Simply attempt to recall precisely in detail
what you were doing at, say, three twenty負hree yesterday afternoon. If
it was a routine task, chances are you will remember only the doing, if
that much, Exact details will escape you.
Yet the experimentation in visiting Locale I is extremely important,
perhaps at the moment more so than anything else to be attempted. For
only through evidential visits in Locale I can sufficient evidential
data on the Second Body and the Second State be obtained. Sufficient,
that is, to bring about serious study by authoritative scientific groups
of our time. Only through such concentrated and extensive study can a
breakthrough of a revolutionary nature be obtained as regards the Second
Body, and applied to the basic knowledge of man. Anything less, and it
will remain an unsolved enigma at best, and at worst a ridiculed and
unacceptable fantasy to both philosopher and scientist. For this reason,
the recurring theme in the reports of experiments is: Get evidential
data.
Here, then, is a later experiment in Locale I performed in the EEG
laboratory of a hospital on a major university campus.
EXPERIMENT #EEG
July 19th, 1966.
Arrived at the hospital EEG lab at 9:00 P.M., after driving seventy
miles from Richmond. No particular sense of fatigue. Sleepiness earlier
in the day, around 1 P.M., but no rest was taken. Active day from
around six負hirty in the morning.
By nine負hirty in the evening, all electrodes had been attached by the
technician, who was the only person present when I arrived. I reclined
on a temporary cot, in a semi苓arkened room, using a pillow and sheet,
no shirt, but retaining trousers. Experienced usual difficulty in
getting head comfortable, especially the ear pressed against the
pillow. As a "side sleeper," it made no difference which side; each was
equally uncomfortable due to the electrodes attached to my ears. After
a semblance of ease, I attempted to relax naturally, but was
unsuccessful. I went finally into the fractional relaxation pattern
(count up from number one, associating each number with a body part
starting with feet, fixing closed eyes in direction of body part as
number and mental command to relax were thought). Experienced usual
mind "drift" at various points, and forced attention back to relaxation
technique. Went through entire sequence without complete relaxation, so
1 started again at the beginning. After about forty苯ive minutes of

this without attaining full relaxation, I decided to take a break, sat
up (halfway), and called to the technician.
I sat up partially, smoked a cigarette, and talked with the technician
for about five or eight minutes, then decided to try again. After some
time spent in attempting to ease ear苟lectrode discomfort, concentrated
on ear to "numb" it, with partial success. Then went into fractional
relaxation technique again. Halfway through the second time around in
the pattern, the sense of warmth appeared with full consciousness (or
so it seemed) remaining. I decided to try the "roll觔ut" method (i.e.,
start to turn over gently, just as if you were turning over in bed
using the physical body). I started to feel as if I were turning, and
at first thought I truly was moving the physical body. I felt myself
roll off the edge of the cot, and braced for the fall to the floor.
When I didn't hit immediately, I knew that I had separated. I moved
away from the physical, and through a darkened area, then came upon two
men and a woman. The "seeing" wasn't too good, but got better as I came
closer. The woman, tall, dark虐aired, in her forties (?), was sitting
on a love seat or couch. Seated to the right of her was one man. In
front of her, and slightly to her left, was the second man. They all
were strangers to me, and were in conversation which 1 could not hear.
I tried to get their attention, but could not. Finally, I reached over,
and pinched the woman (very gently I) on her left side just below the
rib cage. It seemed to get a reaction, but still no communication. 1
decided to return to the physical for orientation and start again.
Back into the physical was achieved simply, by thought of return.
Opened physical eyes, all was fine, swallowed to wet my dry throat,
closed my eyes, let the warmth surge up, then used the same roll觔ut
technique. This time, I let myself float to the floor beside the cot. I
fell slowly, and could feel myself passing through the various EEG
wires on the way down. I touched the floor lightly, then could "see"
the light coming through the open doorway to the outer EEG rooms.
Careful to keep "local," I went under the cot, keeping in slight touch
with the floor, and floating in a horizontal position, finger tips
touching the floor to keep in position, 1 went slowly through the
doorway. I was looking for the technician, but could not find her. She
was not in the room to the right (control console room), and I went out
into the brightly lighted outer room. I looked in all directions, and
suddenly, there she was. However, she was not alone. A man was with
her, standing to her left as she faced me.
I tried to attract her attention, and was almost immediately rewarded
with a burst of warm joy and happiness that I had finally achieved the
thing we had been working for. She was truly excited, and happily and
excitedly embraced me. I responded, and only slight sexual overtones
were present which I was nearly able to disregard. After a moment, I
pulled back, and gently put my hands on her face, one on each cheek,
and thanked her for her help. However, there was no direct intelligent
objective communication with her other than the above. None was tried,
as I was too excited at finally achieving the separation and staying
"local."
I then turned to the man, who was about her height, with curly hair,
some of which dropped over the side of his forehead. I tried to attract
his attention, but was unable to do so. Again, reluctantly, I decided
to pinch her gently, which I did. It did not evoke any response that I
noticed. Feeling something calling for a return to the physical, I
swung around and went through the door, and slipped easy back into the
physical. Reason for discomfort: dry throat and throbbing ear.
After checking to see that the integration was complete, that I "felt"
normal in all parts of the body, I opened my eyes, sat up, and called
to the technician. She came in, and I told her that 1 had made it

finally, and that I had seen her, however, with a man. She replied that
it was her husband.
I asked if he was outside, and she replied thai he was, that he came to
stay with her during these late hours. I asked why I hadn't seen him
before, and she replied that it was "policy" for no outsiders to see
subjects or patients. I expressed the desire to meet him, to which she
acceded.
The technician removed the electrodes, and I went outside with her and
met her husband. He was about her height, curly虐aired, and after
several conversational amenities, I left. I did not query the
technician or her husband as to anything they saw, noticed, or felt.
However, my impression was that he definitely was the man I had
observed with her during the non計hysical activity. My second
impression was that she was not in the console room when I visited
them, but in another room, standing up, with him. This may be hard to
determine, if there is a firm rule that the technician is supposed
always to stay at the console. If she can be convinced that the truth
is more important in this case, perhaps this second aspect can be
validated. The only supporting evidence other than what might have
appeared on the EEG lies in the presence of the husband, of which I was
unaware prior to the experiment. This latter fact can be verified by
the technician.
Important aftermath: In a report to Dr. Tart, the technician confirmed
that she was in the outer hall with her husband at the time of the
indicated "separation." She also confirmed that I did not know he was
present, and that I had not met him previously. Dr. Tart states that
the EEG shows definite unusual and unique tracings during time of
activity.

5. INFINITY, ETERNITY
The best introduction to Locale II is to suggest a room with a sign over
the door saying, "Please Check All Physical Concepts Here." If getting
accustomed to the idea of a Second Body was an uneasy experience, Locale
II may be hard to take. It is certain to produce emotional effects as it
steps solidly upon what we have accepted as reality. Furthermore, many
of our religious doctrines and the interpretations thereof become open
to question,
It is enough to say that only a small part of the visits into Locale II
via the Second Body has provided evidential data, for these visits do
not easily lend themselves to proof. Therefore, much of the Locale II
material is cautious extrapolation. However, several hundred experiments
in this particular area have provided definite consistencies. If A plus
B equals C sixty負hree times, there is a high order of probability that
A plus B will equal C the sixty苯ourth time.
Postulate: Locale II is a non衫aterial environment with laws of motion
and matter only remotely related to the physical world. It is an
immensity whose bounds are unknown (to this experimenter), and has depth
and dimension incomprehensible to the finite, conscious mind. In this
vastness lie all of the aspects we attribute to heaven and hell (See
Chapter VIII), which are but part of Locale II, It is inhabited, if that
is the word, by entities with various degrees of intelligence with whom
communication is possible.
As noted in the percentile analysis in a later chapter, the fundamentals
are altered in Locale II. Time, by the standards of the physical world,
is non苟xistent. There is a sequence of events, a past and a future, but
no cyclical separation. Both continue to exist coterminously with
"now." Measurements, from microseconds to millennia, are useless. Other
measurements may represent these factors in abstract calculation, but
this is uncertain. Laws of conservation of energy, force field theories,
wave mechanics, gravity, matter structure苔ll remain to be proved by
those more versed in such fields.
Superseding all appears to be one prime law. Locale II is a state of
being where that which we label thought is the wellspring of existence.
It is the vital creative force that produces energy, assembles "matter"
into form, and provides channels of perception and communication. I
suspect that the very self or soul in Locale II is no more than an
organized vortex or warp in this fundamental. As you think, so you are.
In this environment, no mechanical supplements are found. No cars,
boats, airplanes, or rockets are needed for transportation. You think
movement, and it is fact. No telephones, radio, television, and other
communication aids have value. Communication is instantaneous. No farms,
gardens, cattle ranches, processing plants, or retail outlets are in
evidence. In all experimental visits, no food energy needs were
indicated. How energy is replaced虹f it is truly spent虹s not known.
"Mere" thought is the force that supplies any need or desire, and what
you think is the matrix of your action, situation, and position in this
greater reality. This is essentially the message that religion and
philosophy have been attempting to convey throughout the ages, although
perhaps less bluntly and often distorted. A facet learned in this medium
of thought explains much. It is: Like attracts Like. I didn't realize
there was such a rule that acted so specifically. It had been to me
nothing more or less than an abstraction. Project this outward, and you
begin to appreciate the infinite variations found in Locale II. Your
destination seems to be grounded completely within the framework of your
innermost constant motivations, emotions, and desires. You may not
consciously want to "go" there, but you have no choice. Your Supermind
(soul?) is stronger and usually makes the decision for you. Like
attracts like.
The interesting aspect of this thought world (or worlds) of Locale II is

that one does perceive what seems to be solid matter as well as
artifacts common to the physical world. These are brought into
"existence," evidently, by three sources. First, they are the product of
thought of those who once lived in the physical world, the patterns of
which still remain. This is accomplished quite automatically, without
deliberate intent The second source is those who liked certain material
things in the physical world, which they have re苞reated apparently to
enhance their surroundings in Locale II. The third source I assume to be
a higher order of intelligent beings more aware of the Locale II
environment than most inhabitants. Their purpose seems to be that of
simulation of the physical environment負emporarily, at least 苯or the
benefit of those just emerging from the physical world, after "death."
This is done to reduce trauma and shock for the "newcomers" by
introducing familiar shapes and settings in the early conversion stages.
By this time, one can begin to understand the relationship of the Second
Body to Locale II. Locale II is the natural environment of the Second
Body. The principles involved in its action, composition, perception,
and control all correspond to those in Locale II. This, then, is why the
majority of the experimental travel attempts took me involuntarily
somewhere into Locale II. The Second Body is basically not of this
physical world. To apply it to visits to George's house or other
physical destinations is like asking a diver to swim down to the ocean
bed without scuba gear or pressure suit. He can do it, but not for long,
and not too many times. On the other hand, he can walk a mile to the
store daily without ill effects. Thus travel to points in the physical
world is a "forced" process in the Second Body state. Given the oppor
tunity of the slightest mental relaxation, the Supermind will guide you
in your Second Body into Locale II. It is the "natural" thing to do.
Our traditional concept of place suffers badly when applied to Locale
II. It seems to interpenetrate our physical world, yet spans limitless
reaches beyond comprehension. Many theories have been offered in
literature throughout the ages as to the "where" of it, but few appeal
to the modern scientific mind.
All of the experimental visits to this area have helped little to
formulate a more acceptable theory. The most acceptable is the wave
vibration concept, which presumes the existence of an infinity of worlds
all operating at different frequencies, one of which is this physical
world. Just as various wave frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum
can simultaneously occupy space, with a minimum of interaction, so might
the world or worlds of Locale II be interspersed in our physical衫atter
world. Except for rare or unusual conditions, our "natural" senses and
our instruments which are extensions thereof are completely unable to
perceive and report this potential. If we consider this premise, the
"where" is answered neatly. "Where" is "here."
The history of man's sciences supports this premise. We had no idea that
sounds existed beyond the range of human hearing until we developed
instruments to detect, measure, and create them. Until comparatively
recently, those who claimed they could hear what others could not were
considered insane or persecuted as witches and sorcerers. We were able
to perceive the electromagnetic spectrum only in terms of heat and light
until the last century. We are still unaware of the capacity of the
human brain, an electrochemical organism, in terms of transmission and
reception of electromagnetic radiation. With this gap unbridged, it is
easy to understand why modern science has not begun to consider the
ability of the human mind to penetrate an area where no serious theory
has been promulgated.
There is so much to report on Locale II that it would be impractical to
quote directly from the hundreds of referential pages of notes. Visits
near and far in Locale II comprise most of the reporting throughout
succeeding chapters. It is the summation of consistent experiences that

may bring the pattern into focus and pose questions that plead for
answers. For every known, there may be one million unknowns, but at
least here is a starting point.
In Locale II, reality is composed of deepest desires and most frantic
fears. Thought is action, and no hiding layers of conditioning or
inhibition shield the inner you from others, where honesty is the best
policy because there can be nothing less.
Under the basic standards described above, existence is indeed
different. It is this difference that creates the great problems of
adjustment even when attempting to visit there while in the Second Body.
The raw emotion so carefully repressed in our physical civilization is
unleashed in full force. To say that it is overwhelming at first is a
massive understatement In conscious physical life, this condition would
be considered psychotic.
My first visits to Locale II brought out all the repressed emotional
patterns I even remotely considered I had計lus many I didn't know
existed. They so dominated my actions that I returned completely abashed
and embarrassed at their enormity and my inability to control them. Fear
was the dominant theme苯ear of the unknown, of strange beings (non
physical), of "death," of God, of rule苑reaking, of discovery, and of
pain, to name only a few. Such fears were stronger than the sexual drive
for union, which, as noted elsewhere, was in itself a tremendous
obstacle.
One by one, painfully and laboriously, the exploding uncontrollable
emotional patterns had to be harnessed. Until this was accomplished, no
rational thought was possible. Without rigorous consistency, they begin
to return. It is much like a slow learning from unsanity to calm
objective reasoning. An infant learns to be "civilized" in its growth
through childhood to adult status. I suspect the same thing occurs all
over again in the adaptation to Locale II. If it doesn't happen during
physical life, it becomes the first order of business upon death.
This implies that the areas of Locale II "nearest" the physical world
(in vibratory frequency?) are peopled for the most part with insane or
near虹nsane, emotionally driven beings. For the most part, this seems to
be true. They include those alive but asleep or drugged and out in their
Second Bodies, and quite probably those who are "dead" but still
emotionally driven. There is evidence to support the former, and the
latter seems probable.
This near area, quite understandably, is not a pleasant place to be. It
is a level or plane where you "belong" until you learn better. I don't
know what happens to those who don't learn. Perhaps they stay there
forever. The moment you disassociate from the physical via the Second
Body, you are on the fringes of this close苑y section of Locale II. It
is here that one meets all sorts of disjointed personalities and animate
beings. If there is some protective mechanism for the neophyte, it was
not apparent to me. Only by cautious and sometimes terrifying
experimentation was I able to learn the art or trick of passing through
the area. I still am not precisely sure of all items in this learning
process, and so have presented only the obvious. Whatever the process, I
happily have not encountered trouble in these passages for several
years.
Aside from the tormentors and the several outright conflicts noted in
the following reports, the principal motivation of these near
inhabitants is sexual release in all forms. If considered as the product
of recent civilizations虹ncluding those both "alive but sleeping" and
"dead"虹t is quite simple to understand the need for release from
repression .of this basic need. The key is that all those in this near
section attempt sexuality in terms of the physical body. There is no
recognition or knowledge of the sex drive as it is manifested in more
distant parts of Locale II. With the lingering conditioning of our own

society, it was difficult to avoid participation at times, as response
was automatic. Hopefully, one learns to control this factor.
Like attracts like.
To date, I have not observed the death process in any experiments.
However, the conclusion that some form of existence in Locale II follows
life activity in the known physical world goes beyond conjecture.
Experiences similar to the following, consistent in content over the
past twelve years, may be explained by some other concept. At this time,
nothing else fits quite so neatly.
On one occasion, I had just left the physical when I felt an urgent need
to go "somewhere." Yielding to the insistence, I moved what seemed to be
a short distance and stopped suddenly in a bedroom. A boy was lying in
the bed, alone. He seemed about ten or eleven in age, and that now
familiar inner identity perception was at work rather than just "see
ing." The boy was lonely and afraid, and seemed ill. I stayed with him
for some time, trying to comfort him, and finally left when he had
calmed down, promising I would return. The trip back to the physical was
uneventful, and I had no idea where I had been.
Several weeks later, I left the physical and was about to concentrate on
a given destination when the same boy moved into view. He saw me and
moved close to me. He was bewildered, but not afraid.
He looked up at me and asked, "What do I do now?"
I couldn't immediately think of how to reply, so I put my arm over his
shoulder and gave him a comforting squeeze. I thought, who am I to
instruct or give directions at what seemed a vital moment? The boy was
reassured by my presence, and relaxed.
"Where do I go?" He asked it matter觔f苯actly.
I said the only thing that seemed logical at the time. I told him to
wait right where he was, that some friends of his would be along
shortly, that they would take him where he was supposed to go.
This seemed to satisfy him, and I kept my arm around him for a while.
Then I became nervous with a signal from the physical body, and patted
him on the shoulder and left. Returning to the physical, I found my neck
stiffened from being in an awkward position. After straightening out, I
succeeded in going into the Second Body again to look for the boy. He
was gone觔r at least I couldn't find him.
An interesting sidelight. The next day the newspaper carried the story
of the death of a ten軌ear觔ld boy after a lingering illness. He had
died in the afternoon, shortly before I had begun the experiment. I
tried to think of some acceptable excuse to approach his parents and get
more confirmation, and perhaps relieve their grief, but could find none.
Only when you have passed the "raw emotion" stage do you move into the
innumerable various but evidently organized activity clusters of Locale
II. It is impossible to convey to another the "reality" of this non
physical eternity. As stated by many in centuries past, it must be
experienced.
Most importantly, in many of the places visited, the inhabitants are
"still" human. Different, in a changed environment, but still with human
(understandable) attributes.
On one visit, I ended up in a parklike surrounding, with carefully
tended flowers, trees, and grass, much like a large mall with paths
crisscrossing the area. There were benches along the paths, and there
were hundreds of men and women Strolling by, or sitting on the benches.
Some were quite calm, others a little apprehensive, and many had a dazed
or shocked look of disorientation. They appeared uncertain, unknowing of
what to do or what was to take place next.
Somehow I knew that this was a meeting place, where newly arrived waited
for friends or relatives. From this Place of Meeting, these friends
would take each newcomer to the proper place where he or she
"belonged." I could not think of any reason to stay longer負here was no

one nearby I recognized貞o I returned to the physical without incident.
Another time I deliberately set out to explore in the hope of finding
one answer to bring back. Upon disassociating into the Second Body, I
started to move rapidly as I concentrated upon the thought, I wish to go
where there are higher intelligences. I kept concentrating as I sped
swiftly through a void that seemed endless. Finally, I stopped. I was in
a narrow valley which seemed normal in all respects. There were men and
women in ankle衍ength robes, dark in color. This time, I decided for
some reason to take another tack. I approached several of the women, and
asked them if they knew who I was. All were quite polite, and created me
with great respect, but gave negative answers. I turned away, and asked
the same question of a man in a monk's robe who seemed hauntingly
familiar.
"Yes, I know you," the man replied. There was a strong sense of
understanding and friendship in his attitude.
I asked him if I truly knew who I was myself. He looked at me as if he
had met an old and dear friend who now had amnesia.
"You will." He smiled gently as he said it.
I asked him if he knew who I had been last. I was trying to get him to
say my name.
"You were last a monk in Coshocton, Pennsylvania," he replied.
I started to get uneasy, and apologetically left, returning to the
physical.
Recently, a Catholic priest friend took the trouble to investigate this
possibility of past衍ife monasticism. To my
surprise and his delight, there is an obscure monastery near Coshocton.
He has offered to take me there for a visit, but time (courage?) has not
been available. Perhaps later . . .
I could report many more of these experiences without fully describing
the scope and dimension of Locale II. There have been visits to a group
that appeared to be in uniform, which operated highly technical
equipment and identified themselves as the "Target Army" (the mind's
interpretation of what was said). There were hundreds, each waiting for
"assignments." Their purpose was not disclosed.
Another visit took me to a well觔rganized city, where my presence was
immediately construed as hostile. Only by taking evasive action訃unning,
hiding, and finally lifting straight up趴as I able to avoid "capture. I
do not know what threat I implied to them.
In a more direct fashion, the appearance of very aggressive actions
tended to confirm again that Locale II is not solely a place of serenity
and non苞onflict. On another trip, I was accosted by a conventionally
dressed man. Warily, I waited to see what he would do.
"Do you know or remember Arrosio LeFranco?" He asked the question
bluntly.
I replied that I did not, still cautious.
"I am sure you will remember if you think back," the man said firmly.
There was a subtle demanding in his attitude which made me uneasy. I
replied that I was sure I didn't remember anyone by that name.
"Do you know anyone at all down there?" he asked.
I had just said that I did not, when I suddenly went limp, and the man
grabbed me. He took one of my arms, and I felt someone else take
another, and they started to drag me in the direction of what seemed to
be three bright spots of lights. I struggled, and finally broke loose
when I remembered to use the "go負o計hysical" signal. I moved away
rapidly, and after a short time was back in the office and into the
physical. Evidently虐opefully背 had been mistaken for someone else.
Still another trip had "human" attributes. I had arrived in no
particular place, just a grayness, and was trying to decide what to do
when a woman approached me.
"I am from the 限Church, and I am here to help you," she said calmly.

She came close, and I immediately sensed the female sexuality but held
back as I didn't think the 限Church intended this kind of help. I was
wrong.
After a bit, I thanked her and turned to see a man standing nearby,
watching.
He "spoke" in a strong voice, heavy with sarcasm. "Well, now are you
ready to learn the secrets of the universe?"
I masked my embarrassment by asking who he was.
"Albert Mather!" He almost shouted it. I also got the impression that he
was calling me by this name.
"I hope you're ready," he went on, his voice rising in anger, "because
nobody took the trouble to tell me when I was back there."
I didn't hear the rest. It was as if a roar of static interfered. I
moved away, not sure how his anger would vent itself, and returned to
the physical uneventfully. In checking, I found no significant
historical record of an Albert Mather (long a), who seems to have no
relation to the minister Cotton Mather of the eighteenth century.
Other experiences in Locale II were more friendly, as indicated
elsewhere. In most, there is no discernible pattern as to what attracted
me to some of the strange situations. Perhaps this will come eventually.
Two unusual recurring conditions must be added to the coverage of this
area. A number of times, the motion of travel, which is usually rapid
and smooth, has been interrupted by what feels like a violent,
hurricanelike gust in the spatiality through which one moves. It is as
if you are being blown away by this uncontrolled force, tossed
haphazardly around, end over end, like a leaf in a gale. It is
impossible to move against this torrent or do anything but let it carry
you. Finally, you are tossed near the edge of the current, and you drop
out, unharmed. There is nothing to identify it, but it feels natural
rather than artificially created.
The second condition is the sign in the sky. I observed this on five or
six occasions when escorted by the "Helpers." It is an incredible series
of crude symbols strung in an arc directly across one section of Locale
II. When moving through the area, everyone has to go around this
barrier, as it is solid, immovable, immutable.
The symbols, as best my "seeing" could determine, were crude, sticklike
illustrations of a man, an older woman, a house, and what looked to be
algebraic equations. It was from one of the "Helpers" that I learned the
story of the sign. He told it with some humor, almost apologetically.
It seems that an almost measureless time ago, a very wealthy (by what
standards is not known) and powerful woman wanted to ensure that her son
would get into heaven. A church offered to guarantee this to her,
provided she paid the church a tremendous sum of money (sic). The woman
paid the church but her son did not get into heaven. In anger and
revenge, she used her entire remaining wealth and power to have the sign
put up in the skies of heaven so that throughout all eternity, all who
saw it would know of the dishonesty and rascality of that particular
church.
It was a job well done. The names of the woman, her son, and the church
are lost in antiquity. But the sign remains, impervious to the efforts
of scientists through the ages to bring it down or destroy it. The
source of the apology and slight embarrassment is not the perfidy of
some obscure sect, but the inability of anyone to take down the sign! As
a result, all studies of science in this part of Locale II must
necessarily include it. It would be much the same if someone
artificially created an element between cobalt and copper. If you
studied chemistry, by necessity you would have to include this "odd"
element. Or, if a huge artificial moon were created and it was beyond
our science to bring it down, students of astronomy would include it in
their lessons as a common fact.

That's the story as it was told to me.
The greatest difficulty is the inability of the conscious mind, trained
and conditioned in a physical world, to accept the existence of this
infinite Locale II. Our young Western mental sciences tend to deny its
existence. Our religions affirm it in a broad, distorted abstraction.
Accepted sciences contradict such a possibility, and can find no
supporting evidence through their instruments of research and measure
ment.
Most of all, there is the Barrier. Why it exists is not truly known by
anyone, at least in the Western world. This is the same screen that
lowers when you awaken from sleep, blotting out your last dream觔r the
memory of your visit to Locale II. This is not to imply that every dream
is the product of a Locale II visit. But some of them may well be the
translation of Locale II experiences.
Translation負he symbolization of Locale II experience虹s not necessarily
part of the Barrier. Rather, it would seem to be the effort of the
conscious to interpret superconscious Locale II events which are beyond
its ability to comprehend or pictorialize. Observation via Second Body
in Locale I (Here胤ow) proved that the most ordinary functions or
actions were subject to misinterpretation, especially when observed out
of context. Locale II, an environment totally unfamiliar to the
conscious, offers that much greater margin for interpretative error.
As can be inferred, I suspect that many, most, or all human beings visit
Locale II at some time during the sleep state. Why such visits are
necessary, I don't know. Perhaps one day, some year, our life sciences
will unravel this knowledge and a new era will be born for mankind. With
this will come an entire new science based upon Locale II data and our
relationship to this wondrous world.
Some day. If mankind can wait that long.

6. REVERSE IMAGE
Paradoxically, the scientist today can conceive far more easily of the
possibility of the area here labeled Locale III than that of Locale II.
Why? Because it fits his latest discoveries in physics, small bits of
evidence he has uncovered in his experiments with matter bombardment,
accelerators, cyclotrons, etc.
The best way to get acquainted with Locale III is to take the
significant experiments leading up to it directly from the notes.
11/5/58 Afternoon
The vibrations came quickly and easily, and were not at all
uncomfortable. When they were strong, I tried to lift out of the
physical with no result. Whatever thought or combination I tried, 1
remained confined right where I was. I then remembered the rotating
trick, which operates just as if you are turning over in bed. I started
to turn, and recognized that my physical was not "turning" with me. I
moved slowly, and after a moment I was "face down," or in direct
opposition to the placement of my physical body. The moment I reached
this 180position (out of phase, opposite polarity?), there was a hole.
That's the only way to describe it. To my senses, it seemed to be a hole
in a wall which was about two feet thick and stretched endlessly in all
directions (in the vertical plane).
The periphery of the hole was just precisely the shape of my physical
body. I touched the wall, and it felt smooth and hard. The edges of the
hole were relatively rough. (All this touching done with the non
physical hands.) Beyond負hrough the hole趴as nothing but blackness. It
was not the blackness of a dark room, but a feeling of infinite distance
and space, as if I were looking through a window into distant space. I
felt that if my vision were good enough I could probably see nearby
stars and planets. My impression, therefore, was of deep, outer space,
beyond the solar system, far in an incredible distance.
1 moved cautiously through the hole, holding onto its sides, and poked
my head through carefully. Nothing. Nothing but blackness. No people,
nothing material. 1 ducked back in hurriedly because of the utter
strangeness. I rotated back 180 felt myself merge with the physical,
and sat up. It was broad daylight, just as when I had left what seemed a
few minutes before. Lapsed time: one hour, five minutes!
11/18/58 Night
The vibrations came in strong, but nothing more. Again, I thought to try
the rotation. When I did, it worked, and I rotated slowly into the 180
position. There was the wall and the hole and the blackness beyond. This
time I was more cautious. Carefully, I reached a hand through into the
blackness. I was astounded when a hand took mine and shook it! It felt
like a human hand, normally warm to the touch. After the handshake, I
withdrew my hand quickly. Slowly, 1 reached into the hole again. The
hand shook mine again, and placed a card in it. I withdrew my hand and
"looked" at the card. It gave a specific address. I returned the card
through the hole, shook hands again, withdrew my hand, rotated back to
normal, merged with the physical, and sat up. Most unusual. I will have
to investigate this address on Broadway, if it is in New York.
12/5/58 Morning
I rotated again, and again found the hole. Still with a note of caution,
I approached the hole, and this time reached through with both hands.
Instantly, both were grasped by two other hands. Then for the first time
in all my experimentation, my name was called. A voice苯eminine, soft,
low計itched, and urgent (fust as if someone were trying to wake me up
from sleep without startling me too much)called, "Bob! Bob!" I was
startled at first, then recovered and asked, "What is your name?"

(always looking for evidential material!) When I "said?* these words,
there seemed to be intense motion or activity, as if my words had
created the effect of dropping a stone into a still lake or pond衍ike
rippling, scurrying, crackling, etc. The voice repeated my name, and I
repeated my question, still with the two hands holding mine.
To be sure I was completely conscious, that I was actually somehow
saying the words correctly, I withdrew my hands, rotated in the 180
blended with the physical, sat up physically, and vocally spoke the
question. Satisfied, I lay back, rotated, and called the question
through the hole again. No answer. I kept trying, until I began to feel
the vibrations weakening, and knew I couldn't hold the condition any
longer. I then rotated back into the physical and normalcy.
12/27/58 Night
Upon setting up the vibrations, I again found the hole as expected. I
gathered up courage, and slowly poked my head through the hole. The
moment I did, I heard a voice say in utter excitement and surprise,
"Come here quick! Look!" I could see no one (this could be due to my
closed苟yes conditioning in order to hold the vibration effect, i.e.,
physical seeing distracts). There was still blackness. The other party
didn't seem to be coming, so the voice called again, urgently and
excitedly. The vibrations seemed to be weakening, so I putted back out
of the hole and rotated back into the physical without incident.
1/15/59 Afternoon
The vibrations came finally, and 1 rotated to examine the hole again.
There it was, at 180 I was a little nervous when I reached through
with one hand. Then I mentally smiled and relaxed, saying to myself,
well, be it hand, daw, or pawt I'm friendly. With that a hand took mine
and squeezed it, and I returned the grasp. I definitely sensed a feeling
of friendliness from the other side. I returned to the physical by
rotation after a. Wile difficulty. In my excitement, 1 forgot both
rotation and return to normal signal!
1/21/59 Night
As a preliminary, I tried the hole again. Rotation went smoothly after
the vibrations started, and I then reached one arm deep into the hole.
When I reached in with the other arm, something sharp seemed to dig into
the palm of my hand, like a hook, and dug in more deeply when I tried to
withdraw it. I finally did so, somewhat shaken. It felt as if the
"hook" had gone right through my hand. It was not necessarily painful,
but the effect was disturbing. I rotated to the physical and looked at
my right hand, physically. There were no marks or feeling (although the
sensation of the penetration aftereffect was present).
1/25/59 Night
Another hole experiment, with the same pattern of vibrations and 180
Again I carefully reached into the hole. A hand again took mine and held
it firmly (no hook!). Then the hand passed mine over to a second hand. I
slowly released the second hand and felt upward. There was definitely an
arm attached to the hand, and a shoulder I was about to explore more,
when the vibrations seemed to soften, and I pulled my arm back and
rotated to the physical. There was no indication of the need to return
to the physical, no cramped arms or legs, no noises. Probably a
momentary sound caused the return.
2/5/59 Afternoon
Perhaps my concern with the hole is justified. I followed the same
approach pattern, vibrations and 180rotation, reached into the hole,

and at first felt nothing. I reached deeper, and suddenly it felt as if
I had thrust my hand into electrically charged hot water (most accurate
description). I withdrew it very quickly, rotated, and sat up
physically. The physical hand felt numb and tingling. From the position
of my body, there was no evidence of poor circulation. The numbness and
tingling slowly disappeared in about twenty minutes.
2/15/59 Afternoon
I experimented with going in and out vertically, then rotated to the
hole. Gathering courage, I pulled myself through in a sweeping rush,
just as a swimmer might pull himself through a hole under water. I felt
the other side of the hole, and the wall was similar to "my" side. I
tried to "see" but there was still nothing but the deep blackness. I
decided to settle the matter once and for all. I shoved away from the
hole and performed the stretch觔ut in a direction exactly on a line away
from the hole.
I started to move, slowly, and soon accelerated rapidly. I kept moving
more rapidly, yet with only a slight sense of friction over my body.
Moving at what seemed a very high speed, I went on, waiting and
expecting to "get" somewhere. After what seemed a very long time, I
began to be concerned. I still "saw" nothing, felt nothing. Finally, I
began to get nervous. Fears about becoming lost began to creep in. 1
slowed, stopped, turned around, and stretched out back in the direction
of the hole. It took just as long to get back as it did to go. I was
quite worried when I finally saw the light through the hole up ahead. I
dove for it, went through, rotated, and sat up physically. Time away was
three hours, fifteen min赴tes!
2/23/59 Night
The hole is populated! This evening (seven負hirty), I went through
vibration and 180rotation, and this time without much hesitation, I
pulled myself through and stood up. I immediately felt myself in the
presence of someone standing there. I sensed his presence rather than
saw him (impres貞iont male). For some unaccountable reason that I do not
yet understand, even recollected now in tranquility, 1 dropped
thankfully in front of him and sobbed. After a moment, I calmed down,
carefully backed away, went through the hole, rotated back into the
physical, and sat up. Who was it? And why did I act so emotionally?
2/27/59 Night
Determined to find some more (or even one!) answers about the hole, I
went through the vibration and 180rotation pattern, and deliberately
went through. It was still black and dark, but not unpleasant, no hands,
no presence. I could feel something solid under me, so 1 tried very hard
to open my eyes and "see." I did, and everything came into view. 1 was
standing near a building (more like a barn than a house) on what was a
wide, meadowlike area. I thought I would try to soar up into the sky
(deep clear bluef no clouds), but I couldn't seem to get off the ground.
Maybe I had weight here. There was what looked like a ladder a hundred
feet or so away, and I went to it and realized it was a tower of some
kind, about ten feet tall. Like a bird needing take觔ff room, I climbed
the tower to the top, leaped away in take觔ffand fell promptly to the
ground with a solid thud! I guess I was surprised as a bird with clipped
wings must feel.
I got to my feet, and realized how foolishly I was acting. I was not
following the proper procedures. Even "here," they had to be followed. I
held up my hands and arms in the stretch觔ut position, and went up
easily. I moved slowly over the meadow, enjoying the view and
exploration, when suddenly something flew past me. 1 turned just in time
to see it heading for the wall and the hole. I was afraid for some

reason that this was something that would go through and try to enter my
body, so I wheeled in flight and dove for the hole. Too late, I realized
that what I thought was the hole was a window in the side of the
building苔nd then I was through the window and in blackness. I felt
around in the dark, and there was the outline of the hole. I went
through, rotated, and sat up in the physical.
Everything looked normal, and I was in the right place, the time passage
was O.K., so back I went! Vibrations were still strong, so I rotated
180 went through the hole and out into brightness. More observant this
trip, 1 noticed two people, a man and a woman, sitting in chairs near
the outside of the building. I couldn't make contact with the man, but
the woman (no physical identification other than this) seemed to know I
was there. I asked her if she knew who I was, but I could get nothing
other than a sense of awareness on her part. The vibrations started to
fade, so I backed away, dove into hole, rotated, and sat up. Total time
of the entire episode was forty minutes.
What can be made of these experiments? Taken at face value, they add up
at the least to an unusual hallucination. At most, the observations show
a developmental pattern.
First, there seems to be nothing in written history of such experiences
as these to offer a comparison. These were not spontaneous incidents,
but deliberately planned and systematically repeated. As such, they
would appear to be unique.
Second, the experiment was repeatable by formula:
1) the setting up of the "vibration" condition; followed by
2) a 180rotation; and
3) the appearance of the "hole." The experiment was performed not
once but at least eleven times.
The 180rotation offers interesting speculation. The reference to "out
of phase" and the apparent identical displacement in exact opposition
deserves the attention of the physicist. Wave苯orm studies of phase
relationships applied in this case might provide a fruitful theory.
The blackness of the hole was evidently a matter of my own limitation in
"seeing." Through the early experimentation, the restriction of vision
was self虹mposed, as I felt this was a requisite for maintaining the
vibration condition. The evidence seems to point to this in the success
in seeing when I decided or tried to see, and did. It would have been
interesting indeed if I had utilized my vision during the long explora
tory "flight." Much might have been learned.
The experience of the "hands" defies explanation. There is no evidence
to indicate that I was conditioned or suggested into the first discovery
of the hand. Second and later such experiences, however, could well have
been of this source. But this in no way invalidates the first of these
impressions. The card with the address might fall into the
classification of past memories, associated with the handshake of a
first meeting. Unexplained still is the "digging" of the "hook" into my
hand.
The calling of one's name is not uncommon under other circumstances.
There are numerous records of such sourceless voices, both in the waking
and sleep states. Various psychological theories have been formulated to
explain the event, with partial success.
Most interesting is the report concerning the evident discovery by some
other party of my penetration through the hole. In accord with published
reports of other experimenters, penetration of the "hole" was visible to
a person or intelligence at some location other than the immediate
vicinity. If this followed the pattern of other such reports, the time
element would be identical. There is no means to verify this one way or
another.

My emotional reaction to the meeting with the "Someone" had many of the
aspects of a mystical experience. It is significant that I felt a sense
of humble ecstasy which triggered an emotional release.
That was the beginning. A series of experiments followed that were
remarkable in their consistency of data, and defied any historical
explanation. The curious intellect cannot dismiss the collective
experience as hallucination.
Locale III, in summary, proved to be a physical衫atter world almost
identical to our own. The natural environment is the same. There are
trees, houses, cities, people, artifacts, and all the appurtenances of a
reasonably civilized society. There are homes, families, businesses, and
people work for a living. There are roads on which vehicles travel.
There are railroads and trains.
Now for the "almost." At first, the thought was that Locale III was no
more than some part of our world unknown to me and those others
concerned. It had all the appearances of being so. However, more careful
study showed that it can be neither the present nor the past of our
physical衫atter world.
The scientific development is inconsistent. There are no electrical
devices whatsoever. Electricity, electromagnetics, and anything so
related are non苟xistent. No electric lights, telephones, radios,
television, or electric power.
No internal combustion, gasoline, or oil were found as power sources.
Yet mechanical power is used. Careful examination of one of the
locomotives that pulled a string of old苯ashioned衍ooking passenger cars
showed it to be driven by a steam engine. The cars appeared to be made
of wood, the locomotive of metal, but of a different shape than our now
obsolete types. The track gauge was much smaller than our standard track
spacing, smaller than our narrow茆auge mountain railways.
I observed the servicing of one of the locomotives in detail. Neither
wood nor coal was used as a thermal source to produce steam. Instead,
large vatlike containers were carefully slid from under the boiler,
detached, and rolled by small cart into a building with massive thick
walls. The containers had pipelike protuberances extending from the top.
Men working behind shields performed the removal, casually cautious, and
did not relax their automatic vigilance until the containers were safely
in the building and the door closed. The contents were "hot," either
through heat or radiation. The actions of the technicians all seemed to
indicate the latter.
The streets and roads are different, again principally in size. The
"lane" on which vehicles travel is nearly twice as wide as ours. Their
version of our automobile is much larger. Even the smallest has a single
bench seat that will hold five to six people abreast The standard unit
has only one fixed seat, that of the driver. Others are much like
living訃oom chairs, placed around a compartment that measures some
fifteen by twenty feet. Wheels are used, but without inflated tires.
Steering is done by a single horizontal bar. Motive power is contained
somewhere in the rear. Their movement is not very fast, at something
like fifteen to twenty miles per hour. Traffic is not heavy.
Self計owered vehicles exist in the form of a four趴heeled platform which
is steered by the feet acting upon the front wheels. A mechanism pumped
by the arms transfers the energy to the rear wheels, much like the
children's "rowing wagons" of some years back. These are used for short
distances.
Habits and customs are not like ours. What little has been gleaned
implies a historical background with different events, names, places,
and dates. Yet, while the stage of man's evolution (the conscious mind
translates the inhabitants as men) seems to be identical, technical and
social evolution are not completely the same.
The major discovery came soon after I gathered the courage for extended

expeditions into Locale III. In spite of early indications, the people
there were not aware of my presence until I met and "merged" temporarily
and involuntarily with one who can only be described as the "I" who
lives "there." The only explanation I can think of is that I, fully
conscious of living and being "here," was attracted to and began mo
mentarily to inhabit the body of a person "there," much like myself.
When this took place苔nd it began to be an automatic process when I went
to Locale III背 simply took over "his" body. There was no awareness of
his mental presence when I temporarily displaced him. My knowledge of
him and his activities and his past came from his family, and what was
evidently his brain memory苑ank. Though I knew that I was not he, I
could feel objectively the emotional patterns of his past. I have
wondered what embarrassment I have caused him as a result of the periods
of amnesia created by my intrusions. Some must have brought him much
distress.
Here is his life: "I" There苔t the first intrusion, was a rather lonely
man. He was not particularly successful in his field (architect
contractor), and not too gregarious. He came of what might be classified
as a low虹ncome group, and succeeded in going to the equivalent of a
minor college. He spent much of his early career in a large city in an
ordinary job. He lived on the second floor of a rooming house, and took
a bus to work. It was a strange city to him, and he made few friends.
(The bus, incidentally, was very wide, seating eight abreast, and seats
rose behind the driver in successively higher tiers, so that all could
see the road ahead.) My first intrusion caught him just as he was
getting off the bus. The driver looked at him suspiciously when I tried
to pay a fare. It seems that none is charged.
The next intrusion came at an emotional crisis. "I" There met Lea, a
wealthy young woman with two children, a boy and a girl, both under four
years of age. Lea was a sad, wistful, and somewhat preoccupied person,
who seemed to have experienced some major tragedy in her life. This had
some relationship to her former husband, but was not clear. "I"
There met her quite accidentally, and was deeply attracted to her. The
two children found in him a great companion. Lea appeared only mildly
interested at this first meeting. Her greatest response lay in his
attention to and warmth for the children.
A short time later an intrusion occurred just as Lea and "I" There had
announced to friends虐er friends負hat they were going to be "married"
(this has a slightly different connotation). There was much
consternation among the friends, chiefly due to the fact that it had
been only thirty days (?) since some major event had occurred in Lea's
life (divorce, her husband's death, or some physical debilitation). "I"
There was still greatly attracted, and Lea was still sad and
introspective.
A later intrusion came when Lea and "I" There were living in a house in
a semipastoral surrounding. The house sat on a low hill, had long
rectangular windows, and very wide eaves much like those of a pagoda.
The railroad curved around the hill some three hundred yards in the
distance, the tracks coming in from the right in a straight line, then
across the front of the hill, then around to the back and to the left
There was deep green grass from the steps of the house, down over the
roll of the hill. Behind the house, "I" There had an office, a one訃oom
building where he worked.
On this occasion, Lea entered the office and came over to the desk just
as I had replaced "I" There.
"The workmen want to borrow some of your tools,' she said.
I looked at her blankly. I was not sure what to say, so I asked her what
workmen.
"The men working on the road, of course." She had not yet sensed
anything wrong.

Before I realized what effect it would have, I said there were no men
working on the road. With this, she looked at me intently, with a
growing suspicion. I was thoroughly unsure of what to do next, so I left
his body and returned through the hole.
Another eventful intrusion came when "I" There had set up his
laboratory. He was not fully qualified to perform research, but he had
decided he could make some kind of new discoveries. He had (perhaps with
the assistance of Lea's wealth) taken a huge storage building, divided
it internally into small rooms, and was conducting some kind of experi
ments. In the middle of one, I displaced him in his body, but was unable
to calculate what was next in his routine. Just then, Lea came in, with
visitors, principally to show the kind of work he had achieved in the
renovated building. I (in "I" There's body) stood there unable to speak
when Lea asked me to tell them of the work I had been doing.
Somewhat embarrassed, Lea led the couple out into another room. I
hesitated when perhaps "I" There would have followed. I tried to "feel"
any pattern of activity that he might have been doing. The best I could
get was that he had been trying to develop new forms of theatrical
entertainment, designing theater stages, lighting, and sets, all in an
attempt to make watching a play a strongly subjective experience. With
only this partial success in his recall, I left his body when I heard
them returning so as to avoid further complicating his life.
A vacation in the mountains was under way at another intrusion point.
"I" There, Lea, and the two children were riding along a winding
mountain road, each on the self計ropelled vehicle described elsewhere. I
"took over' inadvertently just as they were reaching the bottom of one
hill and had started up another. New to the device, I tried to make it
go up the next hill, and soon rolled off the road and into a small pile
of dirt. The rest waited while I tried to get back on the road, and I
muttered that there were better ways to get around than this. This
triggered something in Lea, and she suddenly became quiet. Why, I didn't
know. (I'm sure "I" There did.) I tried to tell her that I was not who
she thought, then realized that this was only making it worse. I
"left," returning to the hole and the physical body.
In later intrusions, "I" There and Lea no longer lived together. He had
met with some success, but some action of his alienated her. Alone, he
has thought of her constantly, and deeply regretted the weakness that
made him displease her. He met her casually once, in a large city, and
pleaded with her to let him visit her. She told him she would let him do
so, and see how things worked out. She lived in the equivalent of an
apartment, on the third floor of a residential building. He promised to
come.
Unfortunately, "I" There lost or forgot the address she gave him, and at
the last intrusion, was a lonely and frustrated man. He was sure that
Lea would interpret his loss of the address as indifference on his part
and another example of his instability. He was working, but was spending
his idle time trying to find Lea and the children.
What can be made of all this? In view of the less than idyllic
circumstances, it scarcely qualifies as an escape from reality via the
unconscious. Nor is it the type of life one might select to enjoy
vicariously. One can only speculate, and such speculation of itself must
consider concepts unacceptable to present苓ay science. However, the
"dual but different" life activity may lend a clue to the "where" of
Locale III.
The most important assumption is that Locale III and Locale I (Here胤ow)
are not the same. This is based upon the differences in scientific
development. Locale III is not more advanced, perhaps even less so.
There is no time in our known history where science was at the Locale
III stage. If Locale III is neither the known past nor the present, and
not the probable future of Locale I, what is it? It is not a part of Lo

cale II, where only thought is needed or used.
It might be a memory, racial or otherwise, of a physical earth
civilization that predates known history. It might be another earth負ype
world located in another part of the universe which is somehow
accessible through mental manipulation. It might be an antimatter
duplicate of this physical earth趴orld where we are the same but
different, bonded together unit for unit by a force beyond our present
comprehension.
Dr. Leon M. Lederman, Professor of Physics at Columbia University, has
stated: "Basic physics is completely consistent with the cosmological
conception of a literal antiworld of stars and planets composed of atoms
of antimatter, which is to say negative nuclei surrounded by positive
electrons. We can now entertain the intriguing idea that these anti
worlds are populated by antipeople, whose antiscientists are perhaps
even now excited by the discovery of matter'

7. POST MORTEM
Any acknowledgment of the existence of the Second Body immediately
demands the question mankind has pondered since the day he learned to
think: Do we live on? Is there life beyond the grave? Our religions say
believe, have faith. This is not quite enough for the syllogistic
thinker who seeks valid premises that are clear苞ut, leading to an
inescapable conclusion.
All I can do is be as reportorial and objective as one can be in a
basically subjective experience. Perhaps my premises will be valid to
you as you read them.
I first met Dr. Richard Gordon in 1942, in New York. He was an M.D., a
specialist in internal medicine. We became friends, and he became our
family doctor. He had a very successful practice, built up over the
years, and possessed a rare cynical貞arcastic sense of humor. He was a
down負o苟arth realist with the wisdom of experience. He was in his
fifties when we first met, so I never knew him as a young man. He was
short and thin, with straight white hair, tending to baldness.
Dr. Gordon had two conspicuous mannerisms. He had decided to live a long
time, evidently, and so paced himself very carefully. He walked
deliberately in a slow, careful stride.
He hurried only when absolutely necessary. More correctly, he strolled
when he walked, with studied casualness.
Second, when someone visited him in his office, he would glance out from
the inner doorway and stare intently. He didn't say "hello" or nod or
wave. He simply stared as if he were saying, "Now what in hell's the
matter with him!"
Without ever having spoken of it, Dr. Gordon and I had a very warm and
close rapport. It was one of those things that happen without
explanation, with no logical reason. We had not too much in common,
other than the fact of going going through a life experience at nearly
the same moment in history.
In the spring of 1961 visited Dr. Gordon at his office and had lunch
with him there, cooked over a Bunsen burner by his long負ime nurse. He
looked tired and preoccupied and I commented about it.
"I haven't been feeling too well," he replied, and then flared up into
his usual self. "What's the matter, can't a doctor get sick once in a
while!"
I laughed, and suggested he do something about it, such as seeing his
family physician,
"I will," he said absently, then back up to his normal self, "but first,
I'm going to Europe."
I said that sounded fine.
"Already have the tickets," he went on. "We've gone a number of times
before, but this time I want to see a lot of the places we've missed.
You ever been to Greece, or Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Egypt?"
I said no.
"Well, you ought to," he said, pushing his food away. "Go when you have
the chance. You wouldn't want to miss seeing places like that. I'm not
going to miss my chance."
I said I would do my best, but that I didn't have a fat practice that
would wait around for me to return. But he was serious again.
"Bob?"
I waited for him to continue.
"I don't like the way I feel," he said carefully. "I don't like . . .
why don't you and your wife come to Europe with us?"
I wish we had.
Dr. Gordon and his wife sailed to Spain a week or so later. There was no
word, so I assumed they were sunning themselves somewhere in the
Mediterranean.
Six weeks later, Mrs. Gordon phoned. The doctor had taken sick in Europe

and they had to cut short their trip. He had refused treatment overseas,
and had insisted that they return home instead. He had been in great
pain, and had gone immediately into the hospital for an exploratory
operation.
I was unable to see him in the hospital, but I was kept informed of his
condition by his wife. The exploratory operation was a success. They
found what they were looking for, an abdominal cancer, beyond treatment.
Nothing more could be done but to make him as comfortable as possible.
He would never leave the hospital. Alive, that is. Or more aptly,
physically alive.
With this news, I felt I must find some way to see Dr. Gordon. It was
all quite clear now, as most things are in retrospect. I am sure he knew
of his condition that day in his office. After all, he was an internist
He certainly could have read the signs and symptoms in his own very
personal laboratory. That was the reason for the sudden trip to Europe.
He definitely wasn't going to miss his last chance! And he didn't
The need to talk with Dr. Gordon seemed urgent. In all of our
conversations, I had never mentioned my "wild talent" or what I had been
going through. I think I was afraid he would have thrown back his head
and laughed, then sent me to his psychiatrist son.
Now it was different. He was racing something where perhaps I could help
him for a change. I didn't know how what I had gone through could help,
but I had a deep conviction that it would.
I tried again and again to see Dr. Gordon, but only his wife was
permitted in his room. I finally asked Mrs. Gordon to help me get in to
see him. She explained that the doctor was in such pain that he was kept
under deep sedation most of the time. Thus he was very rarely lucid and
conscious. Usually he recognized her early in the morning, but even this
didn't happen every day. I told her that I had something important to
tell him. I didn't elaborate. Even in her sorrow, she seemed to
recognize that I intended to bring a message beyond that of a comforting
friend. The intuitive woman found a solution.
"Why don't you write him a letter,' she suggested. "I'll take it to
him."
I said I was afraid he wouldn't be able to read it.
"If you write it," she said, "I'll read it to him, when he's conscious
enough to understand it."
And so that was what we did. She read it again and again to Dr. Gordon
whenever he was conscious. She told me later that these repeated
readings were at his request, not at her suggestion. Was there something
in the letter he wanted to place firmly in his mind?
When I heard this, I felt a great sense of regret. Perhaps he would not
have leaned back and laughed, after all. We might have shared much more
if I had only gathered the courage to discuss my "activities" with him.
Here are pertinent excerpts of the letter to Dr. Gordon:
". . . and you remember all the tests and examinations you gave me
because you knew I was worried about something. Well, that was when it
started. Now as long as you are in the hospital for a while, you might
just try it and find out for yourself. That way, you don't have to take
my word for it. It will give you something to do while you recuperate.
"First, you have to accept the possibility, remote as it may be to your
experience, that you can act, think, and exist without the restriction
of a physical body. And don't tell your wife to send me to that
psychiatrist son of yours. It takes more than Freud to solve this one.
Besides, he's making enough money as it is.
"In all of our conversations, it didn't seem appropriate to bring up
this subject. But as long as you're going to be tied down, give it some
serious consideration. It might be useful later on, and I hope you can
discover a few things about it that I have passed over. It all depends
upon whether you can also develop the ability to 'leave' your physical

body while loafing in that hospital bed. If so, you might find many ways
that it can be helpful. It may be one way to ease physical pain. I don't
know. Give it a try.
"... With all the sincerity I can muster, I urge you, Dick, to think
about it. You will have passed a major milestone when you do no more
than accept the idea that this second, non計hysical body of yours
actually might exist. Once this has been achieved, your only other
barrier is fear. And it need not be. Because this is like being afraid
of your shadow, of yourself. It is natural rather than strange. Get used
to this idea負hat your lack of conscious experience with it does not
necessarily mean it is something to be afraid of. Unknowns are feared
only as long as they remain so. If you can hang onto this, you need not
have fear. Then, and only then, try the formula I have written here. I
don't know the effect of any medication you may be taking. It may help
or hinder the technique. But do give it a try. It may or may not work
the first time.
". . . Most important, let me know how you get along with it. When you
get better, perhaps I can drop over and discuss the whole thing in
detail. I would have come now in person, but you know how cranky the
hospital is about rules. If you tell your wife about any attempts, I'm
sure she will relay them to me. But I would much rather hear them from
you later on. Just let me know. . , ."
Mrs. Gordon did not let me know if he actually did try. I felt it
entirely inappropriate to query her too specifically at the time. She
was much too sadly overwrought with the knowledge that Dr. Gordon's
condition was terminal. I still am not sure that she realized my letter
could be construed as suggested training for death.
Dr. Gordon dropped into a coma several weeks later. He died peacefully
without regaining consciousness.
For several months I thought about an attempt to "go" to Dr. Gordon,
wherever he was. He was the first person close to me who had died since
the development of my "wild talent." I was both curious and objective.
It was the first such opportunity. I was sure that Dr. Gordon wouldn't
mind虹f he did continue to exist.
Not knowing about such things, I decided he would probably need some
rest before I interfered with whatever he was doing. Also, I needed to
summon up some additional courage on my own. This was an experiment I
hadn't tried before. It might be truly dangerous.
Then, on a Saturday afternoon, I made the attempt. It took about an hour
to get into the vibrational state, and I finally swung up out of the
body mentally yelling, I want to see Dr. Gordon!
After a moment, I started to move rapidly upward, and soon all I could
see was a blur of motion and feel what seemed like a rush of very thin
air. Also, I felt a hand under my left elbow. Somebody was helping me
get there.
After what seemed an endless journey, I suddenly stopped (or was
halted). I was standing, somewhat dazed, in a large room. My impression
was that it was an institution of some kind. The hand under my elbow
moved me to an open doorway, and stopped me just inside the door, where
I could look into the adjoining room. A male voice spoke almost directly
into my left ear.
"If you stand right here, the doctor will see you in a minute."
I nodded agreement, and stood there waiting. A group of men were in the
room. Three or four were listening to a young man about twenty負wo who
was excitedly relating something to them, complete with gestures.
I didn't see Dr. Gordon, and kept expecting him to appear at any moment.
The more I waited, the warmer I seemed to feel. Finally, I became so hot
that I was extremely uncomfortable. I didn't know what was causing me to
feel so hot, and I wasn't sure I could stand it much longer. It actually
felt as if streams of perspiration were running down my face. I knew

that I couldn't stay much longer; I couldn't take the heat. If Dr.
Gordon didn't appear soon, I would have to go back without seeing him.
I turned and looked again at the group of men, thinking that perhaps I
should ask them about Dr. Gordon. At just that moment, the short, thin
young man with the big shock of hair stopped in the middle of his
conversation, and looked at me intently for a moment. After the simple
short glance, he turned back to the other men and continued his animated
discussion,
The heat became unbearable, and I decided I had to leave. I couldn't
wait for Dr. Gordon. Using a motion I had learned, I moved quickly
upward and away from the room. It was a long journey back. After
reintegrating, I checked my physical body. I felt cold, a little stiff.
Certainly there were no streams of perspiration running down my cheeks.
Disappointed, I sat up and made notes of the trip. I had failed for some
reason. I had not been able to find Dr. Gordon. Time away from the
physical was two hours.
There is a stubborn streak in my heredity. The following Saturday I
tried again. Just at the moment I left the physical body and started to
yell for Dr. Gordon, a voice spoke right beside me, almost irritated.
"Why do you want to see him again? You saw him last Saturday!"
I was so surprised that I dropped back into the physical almost
instantly. I sat up and looked around the office. There was no one in
the room. Everything was normal. I thought of trying again, but decided
it was too late for another attempt that day.
Last Saturday. There was nothing important about last Saturday. It
hadn't worked. I went back through my notes for "last Saturday." And
there it was.
"The doctor will see you in a minute.' And what could have been a minute
later, a short, thin young man with a shock of hair had turned and
looked at me intently. He had looked at me without saying a word, as if
he were thinking. What I had noted was a perfect description of what Dr.
Gordon would have been at twenty負wo instead of seventy.
This seemed to lend more credence to the experience than anything else.
I had expected to see a man of seventy. I didn't recognize him because
he was not what I expected. If I had suggested this as a hallucination,
I conceivably would have met a seventy軌ear觔ld Dr. Gordon.
Later, at a visit to the home of Dr. Gordon's widow, I managed to see an
old photo of Dr. Gordon when he was twenty負wo. Of course, I didn't tell
Mrs. Gordon why I wanted to see the picture. It matched perfectly the
man I saw, and who saw me "there." She also mentioned that at that age,
he was very active and eager, always in a hurry, and had a big shock of
blond hair.
Someday I will try again to visit Dr. Gordon.
Another time, in anticipation of a move out of state, we sold our home
when a buyer suddenly came along. As a temporary measure, we rented a
house for the year prior to our move. .
It was an interesting place built on a pinnacle of rock directly over a
small river. We rented it through an agent, and never met or came in
contact with the owner. My wife and I took the master bedroom, which was
on the main floor.
About a week after we moved in, we went to bed and my wife fell asleep
almost immediately. I lay there in semidark要ess and looked through the
floor負o苞eiling windows at the night sky. Without willing it, I felt
the familiar vibrations begin, and wondered if it would be all right to
let it happen in the new location.,
Our bed was positioned off the north wall. To the right of the bed, if
you were lying down, was the door to the hall. To the left of the bed
was the doorway into the master bathroom.
I was just in the act of lifting out of the physical when I noticed
something at the doorway. It was a white form the general size and shape

of a person.
Having become extremely cautious about "strangers," I waited to see what
would happen. The white form moved into the room, around the bed, and
passed within a foot of my side of the bed as it went into the bathroom.
I could see that it was a woman of medium height, with dark straight
hair and rather deep貞et eyes, not young, not old.
She was in the bathroom only a few moments, then emerged and started
around the bed again. I sat up要on計hysically, I'm sure苔nd reached out
to touch her, to see if I really could.
Seeing the motion, she stopped and looked at me. When she spoke, I could
hear her quite clearly. I could see the windows and drapes behind her
and through her.
"What are you going to do about the painting?" It was a woman's voice,
and I could see her lips move.
Not knowing what to say, I tried to give a satisfactory answer. I said I
would take care of it, don't worry.
With this, she smiled slightly. Then she reached out with both her hands
and took my hand in hers, clasping my hand between both of hers. The
hands felt real, normally warm and alive. She gave my hand a little
squeeze, gently dropped it, and moved around the bed and out the door.
I waited, but she didn't return. 1 lay down, activated the physical,
then slid out of bed. I went to the hall door and looked into the other
rooms. There was no one there. I went through all of the downstairs
rooms and found nothing. Then I made out my notes, went back to bed, and
slept.
A few days later I met the psychiatrist who lived in the house next to
us, Dr. Samuel Kahn. (I kept meeting psychiatrists this casually!) I
asked him if he had known the people who owned our house.
"Yes, yes, I knew them quite well," Dr. Kahn said. "Mrs. W. died about a
year ago. After that, Mr. W. refused to go into the house, just moved
out and didn't come back."
I said it was too bad, that it was a fine house.
"Well, it was her house, you understand,' Dr. Kahn replied. "Matter of
fact, she died right there in the house, in the room you're sleeping
in."
I said that was interesting. She must have liked the house very much.
"Oh, she did," he replied. "Very fond of paintings. Had them hung all
over the place. But the house was pretty much her whole life."
I asked him if he happened to have a photo of Mrs. W.
"Let me see." He thought for a moment. "Why, yes. I think she was in on
a group picture taken at the club. I'll see if I can find it."
Dr. Kahn came back a few minutes later. In his hand was a photograph
showing some fifty or sixty men and women, most of them simply heads as
they stood in rows.
Dr. Kahn studied the picture. "She's in here somewhere, yes, I'm sure."
I looked over his shoulder at the picture. In the second row was a
familiar face. I touched it with my finger and asked Dr. Kahn if this
was Mrs. W.
"Oh yes, yes, that's Mrs. W." He looked at me curiously, then with
realization. "Oh, you must have found a picture of her in the house
somewhere."
I said yes, that was it. Very casually, I asked him if Mrs. W. had had
any unusual mannerisms or the like.
"No, not that I can remember,' he answered. "But I'll think about it.
There must have been something." I thanked him, and started to leave. I
turned when he called.
"Wait a minute, there was one item," Dr. Kahn said.
I asked what it was.
"Why, whenever she was happy or grateful, she took your hand in both of
hers, palm to palm, and gave a little squeeze. Does that help?"

That helped.
With experience, I became a little more convinced that I could take such
chances in areas that were certainly unusual. A very close friend, Agnew
Bahnson, was about my age and we had much in common. I had known him for
about eight years. He was a pilot, among other things, and flew
frequently in his company airplane. One of his research interests was
antigravity, which we discussed many times. He had a laboratory where he
conducted experiments in this field. Among matters we discussed relative
to his gravity studies was the question of how one or even two people
could demonstrate any effective results in antigravity in this age of
massive research teams and extremely expensive instrumentation.
On a business trip to New York in 1964, I found myself in my hotel room
with an hour to spare in the afternoon. I decided to take a nap. I lay
down on the bed, and had just started to drop off to sleep when I heard
Mr. Bahnson's voice.
"There is a way to prove antigravity. All you have to do is to
demonstrate it yourself, and you have been trained to do it"
I sat up, fully awake. I knew what the voice was referring to, but I
hadn't had the courage to try it. But why did Mr. Bahnson's voice sound
so real in this dream? I looked at the clock by the bed, and it was just
about three苯ifteen. I was too wide awake now to sleep, so I got up and
went out
When I returned home two days later, my wife was very quiet I asked her
what was wrong.
"We didn't want to upset you with all you had to do in New York," she
said, "but Agnew Bahnson is dead. He was killed trying to land his
airplane in a small field out in Ohio."
I remembered Mr. Bahnson's voice in New York. I asked her if he had been
killed two days ago, at about three苯ifteen in the afternoon.
My wife looked at me a long rime before she said, 'Yes. That was when it
happened."
She didn't ask how I knew. She was past that long ago.
I didn't make any attempt to "go** to Mr. Bahnson for several months. I
presumed without any known reason that he needed rest. It had something
to do with a violent death, and I'm still not sure I was right
Finally, I grew impatient On Sunday afternoon I lay down with the
deliberate intent of going to visit Mr. Bahnson.
After about an hour of preparation, I finally made it out of the
physical, and began to travel rapidly through what seemed to be nothing
but darkness. I was mentally shouting, Agnew Bahnson I, again and again
as I traveled.
Suddenly, I stopped, or was stopped, I was in a rather dark room.
Someone was holding me very still in a standing position. After a moment
of waiting, a cloud of white gas seemed to blow up through a small hole
in the floor. The cloud took form and some sense told me it was Mr.
Bahnson, although I could not see him too well or identify his features.
He spoke immediately in an excited and happy way.
"Bob, you'll never believe all of the things that have happened since
I've been here!"
There was no more. At a signal from someone, the cloud of white gas lost
its human form and seemed to recede back into the hole in the floor. The
hands on my elbows steered me away, and I took off back to the physical.
That is the way Mr. Bahnson would have been負oo interested in new things
and new experiences to waste time in the "then" or the past Just like
Dr. Gordon.
If it was a self虹nduced hallucination, at least it was original I have
never read anything like it. Does that explain the time coincidence in
the New York hotel room?
There is one more. In 1964 my father died at the age of eighty負wo.
Although I had been rebellious in early years against paternal

authority, I felt quite close to my father in later years. And I'm sure
he felt close to me.
He had suffered a stroke several months before which had left him almost
completely paralyzed and incapable of speech. The latter was evidently
most vexing, as it would naturally be to a man who was a linguist, whose
life had been devoted to the study and teaching of languages.
During this period, when I visited him, he made desperate, heart訃ending
attempts to speak to me, to tell me something. His eyes pleaded that I
understand. Only slight moans came from his lips. I tried to comfort
him, talked to him. He tried his best to answer. I couldn't tell if he
even understood my
words.
My father died quietly in his sleep one afternoon. He had lived a full
life, a successful one, and his death brought mingled sadness and a
sense of release.
Again and again, I have realized the importance of some of the down負o
earth beliefs and concepts that I learned from my father. I will always
be grateful.
This time, with one very close to me just recently dead, I had much less
trepidation than before. Or perhaps familiarity, at least the sense of
it, bred a little less caution and more faith.
The only reason that I waited several months was one of convenience.
Other pressing matters in my personal and business life seemed to
prevent the necessary ability to relax. However, I woke up at about 3
A.M. on a week要ight and felt that I could try to visit my father.
I went through my ritual, and the vibrations came easily and swiftly. In
moments, I disengaged without effort, and was up and free in the
darkness. This time, I didn't use the mental yell. I concentrated upon
the personality of my father and "reached" to be where he was.
I began to move rapidly through the darkness. I could see nothing, but
there was the tremendous sense of motion coupled with the pull of thick,
liquidlike air rushing past my body. It is much like the feeling of
plunging through water after a dive. Suddenly, I stopped. I do not
recall anyone stopping me this time, nor could I feel the hand on my
elbow. I was in a dim room of large proportions.
I seemed to know that this was like a hospital or convalescent home, but
no treatment as we know it was practiced here. I started to look around
for my father. I didn't know what to expect, but at least I looked
forward to a joyful reunion.
There were several small rooms off the main room where I stood. I looked
into two of these, and in each there were several people who paid little
attention to me. I began to wonder if I had come to the wrong place.
The third room was no larger than a monk's cell, with a small window
about shoulder height in the wall opposite the door. There was a man
leaning against the wall near the window, looking out. I saw only his
back as I entered.
Then he turned and saw me. His face registered utter astonishment, and
my "dead" father spoke to me.
"What are you doing here!" He said this in exactly the manner a person
would use who had traveled halfway around the world and then met someone
to whom he had just said goodbye back home.
I was too excited to speak, and just stood there, hoping for the joyful
reunion I had expected. It came immediately. My father reached forward,
grabbed me under the armpits, and happily swung me high over his head
and down again, just as I remembered so well as a small child, just as
most fathers have done with their small sons.
He put me down on my feet again, and I was confident enough to speak. I
asked him how he was feeling.
"Much better now," he said. "The pain is gone."
It was almost as if I had reminded him of something he wanted to forget.

The energy seemed to drain out of him,
and he turned away, appearing tired. As I watched him, he seemed to
forget I was there. He looked thinner, and about fifty, based upon
pictures we have when he was that age.
I sensed that the meeting was over. There could be no more for now.
Quietly, I moved back out of the room, turned and "reached" out, and
returned to the physical body. It took much less time to return than to
go.
Was it that way? Was the pain so intense in those last days when he
couldn't make himself understood to get help to ease that pain? If that
is true, what a terrible prison his body must have been. Death was
indeed a blessing.
Will I try to "see" him again? I don't know, I don't know
if I should.
There are many other experiences, less personal, but equally impressive.
They all led me to an inescapable empirical conclusion, which alone
justified the many, many hours of anguish, uncertainty, fear,
loneliness, and disillusion; which was a point of embarkation on what
some call the Quantum Jump in thinking and the beginning of a new view
point and perspective; which permitted the pains and pleasures of Here
Now to drop into their proper category of importance (what is a minute,
hour, or year in an infinity of existence?); which opened a doorway to a
reality that may ultimately prove incomprehensible to the conscious
human mind, yet will continue to tantalize the curious and incriminate
the intellectual.
Is this my answer? Compound these experiences with the knowledge that
the human personality can and does operate away from the physical body,
and there can be but one.
If there is to be a Great Message herein, this may suffice.
If the human being has a Second Body, if that Second Body survives what
we call death, if personality and character continue to exist in this
new觔ld form趴hat then? Again, an age觔ld question that pleads for an
answer.
To date, in twelve years of non計hysical activities, I find no evidence
to substantiate the biblical notions of God and afterlife in a place
called heaven. Perhaps I have found this and simply haven't recognized
it. It is quite possible. It may be that I am not "qualified." On the
other hand, much of what I have encountered could be some basics which
have been distorted through hundreds of years.
Let's start with prayer, which is supposed to be a direct communication
with God. As we are taught to pray today, it is as if a chemical formula
is recited without any knowledge of the original intent or meaning of
the ingredients. Or the way our children sing "London Bridge Is Falling
Down," with no knowledge of the original meaning of the song. Our entire
civilization is filled with such irrational habits. Evidently, prayer is
one of these.
Somewhere, someone knew how to pray. He tried to teach others. A few
learned the methodology. Others absorbed only the words, and the words
themselves became altered and changed over the years. Gradually, the
technique was lost, until accidentally (?) rediscovered periodically
through the ages. In the latter cases, only rarely has the rediscoverer
been able to convince others that the Old, Established Way
is not quite right
This is all I can report. The Old, Established Way is not enough. Or as
I say, perhaps I am not qualified. Worse still, it may be that my prayer
training was insufficient or improper. At any rate, it didn't work for
me.
Here is an illustration. On one non計hysical excursion, I was speeding
through nothing back to the physical with everything apparently well
under control. Without warning, I rammed into a solid wall of some

impenetrable material. I wasn't hurt, but I was utterly shocked.
The material was hard and solid, and seemed to be made of huge plates of
steel overlapping slightly and welded together. Each had a slight
curvature as if: part of a globe.
I tried to push through it, but could not. I went up, down, to the
right, and to the left. I was absolutely sure my physical body lay
beyond this barrier.
After what seemed an hour of scratching, clawing, and pushing at this
barrier, I prayed. I used every prayer I had ever learned, and made up a
few special ones. And I meant every word more than I had ever meant
anything in my life.
I was that frightened.
Nothing happened. I was still plastered against the barrier, unable to
get through and back to my physical body.
I panicked. I clawed, screamed, and sobbed. After this proved futile, I
finally calmed down only out of emotional exhaustion. Feeling lost, I
lay there and rested, clinging to the cold, hard wall
I don't know how long I lay there until the ability to think objectively
returned. But it did. I couldn't stay there forever 觔r at least I
didn't want to. It seemed an impossible situation. Where before had I
encountered an apparently impossible situation?
I remembered. Years before, a friend and I had purchased an airplane
whose flight characteristics we did not know. The only reason we bought
this particular plane was that it was cheap and in good condition.
After several practice flights around the field, we decided to take it
up for acrobatics. With borrowed parachutes, we took off and headed up
to around ten thousand feet.
We took it through several lazy eights, a few sloppy loops, and several
spins. Everything seemed all right. After climbing back to altitude, we
nosed the ship down slightly and popped stick and rudder to go into a
snap roll.
The next thing we knew, we were in a spin. We centered stick, and
forward, the accepted recovery procedure. It had worked before
beautifully. But not this time. The spin became flatter, faster, and was
developing a whiplike action. Opposite rudder against the spin, bursts
of power, none had any effect on the spin. If anything, the spin
worsened and the ground was coming up fast.
Bill looked around from the front cockpit, his face white. He yelled at
me over the wind roar, "We better get out of here!"
I was ready to leave too. The only thing that kept me there a few more
seconds was the possible loss of the airplane for which I had saved so
long. I reasoned, We've tried everything except the procedure that
violates the rules, the one thing not to do if you're in a spin. Pull
back on the stick. What did I have to lose?
I pulled back on the stick. The ship straightened out of the spin
immediately and gathered flying speed. I rolled it until the earth was
where it belonged. We landed safely and crawled out shakily and sat on
the ground. We had fallen into an outside spin. Neither of us had seen
such a spin before, much less tried one.
I remembered the outside spin. I tried to apply the concept as I lay
there panting against the barrier. Forward, up, down, right, left要o
good.
There was Just one remaining direction, although my knowledge said
definitely it was not right. It couldn't make things any worse to try,
so I did, and only a few moments later, I was back in the physical
shaken but safe.
Which way? It was obvious in hindsight: away from the barrier, back in
the direction from which I had been traveling. Why this worked, I don't
know. Nor do I know what the barrier was.
Perhaps it could be rationalized that prayer did work. I did get back,

didn't I? If it did, it was not in the manner that religion taught me.
No helping angel came hurrying to give me aid and comfort
Another time, I was visiting my brother and his family overnight Shortly
after retiring to the guest room, I went to bed for some much needed
rest.
If it has any bearing, the headboard of my bed backed against the wall
separating my room from that of my four軌ear觔ld niece. Her bed was
directly against the same wall
As I stretched out in the dark, the familiar surge of vibrations came,
and I decided to slip out for a moment just to test being in this
condition away from home.
The moment I left the physical, I became aware of three beings in the
room. I stayed cautiously close to my physical body as they came nearer.
They started to pull at me, not hard, but deliberately as if to see what
I would do. They were having a good time at it. I tried to stay calm,
but there were three of them. I wasn't sure I could get back into the
physical quickly enough before they pulled me away.
So I prayed. Again, I used every prayer I knew. I asked God to help me.
I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ for help. I tried a few saints I
had heard of through my Catholic
wife. The result? My tormentors laughed loudly and worked me
over more enthusiastically.
"Listen to him pray to his gods," one chuckled, most contemptuously.
"Listen to him!"
I think I got a little angry after that. I began to push back, got close
to my physical body, and dove in. I wasn't exactly fighting back, but I
certainly didn't remain passive.
I sat up in the physical most relieved to be back. Even as I sat up, I
heard a child crying. It was coming from the room beyond the wall. I
waited several minutes, expecting my sister虹n衍aw to come and calm the
little girl and get her back to sleep.
After some ten minutes, the little girl, J., still had not stopped. I
got up and went out to the adjoining bedroom. My sister虹n衍aw had the
little girl, who was still sobbing deeply, in her arms and was trying to
comfort her. I asked what was wrong, and could I help?
"She'll be all right in a little while, I think," my sister虹n衍aw
replied. "She must have had a nightmare or bad dream, and I can't seem
to wake her up." I asked how long the girl had been crying. "Oh, just a
few minutes before you came in. She isn't like this. She usually sleeps
very soundly."
I offered again to help if needed, and went back to my room. Some time
later little J. quieted down and evidently went to sleep.
Was my niece's trancelike nightmare a coincidence? Or
perhaps some new praying technique is needed on my part
There are many more such incidents, but they followed
much the same pattern when I attempted the conventional
and accepted approach to prayer.
There are, however, more positive prospects to report re茆arding heaven
and hell. If they exist, they are somewhere in Locale II.
In non計hysical trips to Locale II, often there is a "layer" or area
which one must pass through, as mentioned earlier. It seems to be the
part of Locale II closest to Here胤ow, and in some way most related. It
is a gray苑lack hungry ocean where the slightest motion attracts
nibbling and tormenting beings.
It is as if you are the bait dangling in this vast sea. If you move
slowly and do not react to the curious "fish" who come to investigate,
you pass through without much incident. Move violently and fight back,
then more excited denizens come rushing in to bite, pull, push, shove.
Could this be the borders of hell? It is easy to conclude that a
momentary penetration of this nearby layer would bring "demons" and

"devils" to mind as the chief inhabitants. They seem subhuman, yet have
an evident ability to act and think independently.
Who and what are they? I don't know. I haven't taken the trouble to stay
there long enough to find out. Only by terrified trial and error did I
find the method to pass through in reasonable peace.
In these worlds where thoughts are not only things, but are everything,
including you, your poison or perfection is of your own making. If you
are a remorseless killer, you may end up in that part of Locale II where
all are of the same design. This truly would be hell for such people,
for there would be no innocent, defenseless victims.
Project this outward, and you can begin to perceive the myriad
variations. Your destination in the heaven or hell of Locale II seems to
be grounded completely within the framework of your deepest constant
(and perhaps non苞onscious) motivations, emotions, and personality
drives. The most consistent and strongest of these act as your "homing"
device when you enter this realm.
I am sure of this because it always works this way when I have traveled
non計hysically in Locale II. It works this way whether I want it to or
not. The least stray desire at the wrong time, or a deep貞eated emotion
I wasn't aware of, diverts my trip in that 'like" direction.
Some of the resulting destinations have had all the aspects of hell to
me. Others might possibly be construed as heaven, and some differ in
practice only slightly from our activities in Here胤ow.
So. If Locale II seems to have portions of hell and doesn't quite live
up to our notions of heaven, what then? Where do we look for the
guidepost? Where are the God and heaven that we worship? Have I missed
something?
And yet, at times, in visiting Locale II, a very unusual event
periodically occurs. It makes no difference where in Locale II, the
event is the same.
In the midst of normal activity, whatever it may be, there is a distant
Signal, almost like heraldic trumpets. Everyone takes the Signal calmly,
and with it, everyone stops speaking or whatever he may be doing. It is
the Signal that He (or They) is coming through His Kingdom.
There is no awestruck prostration or falling down on one's knees.
Rather, the attitude is most matter觔f苯act It is an occurrence to which
all are accustomed and to comply takes absolute precedence over
everything. There are no exceptions.
At the Signal, each living thing lies down衫y impression is on their
backs, bodies arched to expose the abdomen (not the genitals), with head
turned to one side so that one does not see Him as He passes by. The
purpose seems to be to form a living road over which He can travel. I
have gleaned the idea that occasionally He will select someone from this
living bridge, and that person is never seen or heard from again. The
purpose of the abdominal exposure is an expression of faith and complete
submissiveness, the abdomen being the most vulnerable part of the body
or the area that can suffer damage most easily. There is no movement,
not even thought, as He passes by. Everything has come to a momentary
standstill, full and complete, while He passes.
In the several times that I have experienced this, I lay down with the
others. At the time, the thought of doing otherwise was inconceivable.
As He passes, there is a roaring musical sound and a feeling of radiant,
irresistible living force of ultimate power that peaks overhead and
fades in the distance. I remember wondering once what would happen to me
if He discovered my presence, as a temporary visitor. I wasn't sure I
wanted to find out.
After His passing, everyone gets up again and resumes their activities.
There is no comment or mention of the incident, no further thought of it
There is complete acceptance of the event as an ordinary part of their
lives, and this is the great yet subtle difference. It is an action as

casual as halting for a traffic light at a busy intersection, or waiting
at the railroad crossing when the signal indicates that a train is
coming; you are unconcerned and yet feel unspoken respect for the power
represented in the passing train. The event is also
impersonal.
Is this God? Or God's son? Or His representative?
Three times I have "gone" to a place that I cannot find words to
describe accurately. Again, it is this vision, this interpretation, the
temporary visitation to this "place" or state of being that brings the
message we have heard so often throughout the history of man. I am sure
that this may be part of the ultimate heaven as our religions conceive
it It must also be the nirvana, the Samadhi, the supreme experience
related to us by the mystics of the ages. It is truly a state of being,
very likely interpreted by the individual in many different ways.
To me, it was a place or condition of pure peace, yet exquisite emotion.
It was as if you were floating in warm soft clouds where there is no up
or down, where nothing exists as a separate piece of matter. The warmth
is not merely around you, it is of you and through you. Your perception
is dazzled and overwhelmed by the Perfect Environment.
The cloud in which you float is swept by rays of light in shapes and
hues that are constantly changing, and each is good as you bathe in them
as they pass over you. Ruby訃ed rays of light, or something beyond what
we know as light, because no light ever felt this meaningful. All the
colors of the spectrum come and go constantly, never harshly, and each
brings a different soothing or restful happiness. It is as if you are
within and a part of the clouds surrounding an eternally glowing sunset,
and with every changing pattern of living color, you also change. You
respond and drink into you the eternity of the blues, yellows, greens,
and reds, and the complexities of the intermediates. All are familiar to
you. This is where you belong. This is Home.
As you move slowly and effortlessly through the cloud, there is music
around you. It is not something of which you become aware. It is there
all the time, and you vibrate in harmony with the Music. Again, this is
more than the music you knew back there. It is only those harmonies, the
delicate and dynamic melodic passages, the multivoiced counterpoint, the
poignant overtones虹t is only those that have evoked in you the deep,
incoherent emotion back there. The mundane is missing. Choirs of human
sounding voices echo in wordless song. Infinite patterns of strings in
all shades of subtle harmony interweave in cyclical yet developing
themes, and you resonate with them. There is no source from which the
Music comes. It is there, all around you, in you, you are a part of it,
and it is you.
It is the purity of a truth of which you have had only a glimpse. This
is the feast, and the tiny tidbits you tasted before, back there, had
made you hope for the existence of the Whole. The nameless emotion,
longing, nostalgia, sense of destiny that you felt back there when you
stared at the cloud衍ayered sunset in Hawaii, when you stood quietly
among the tall, waving trees in the silent forest, when a musical
selection, passage, or song recalled memories of the past or brought
forth a longing for which there was no associated memory, when you
longed for the place where you belonged, whether city, town, country,
nation, or family負hese are now fulfilled. You are Home. You are where
you belong. Where you always should have been.
Most important, you are not alone. With you, beside you, interlocked in
you are others. They do not have names, nor are you aware of them as
shapes, but you know them and you are bonded to them with a great single
knowledge. They are exactly like you, they are you, and like you, they
are Home. You feel with them, like gentle waves of electricity passing
between you, a completeness of love, of which all the facets you have
experienced are but segments and incomplete portions. Only here, the

emotion is without need of intense display or demonstration. You give
and receive as an automatic action, with no deliberate effort. It is not
something you need or that needs you. The "reaching out" is gone. The
interchange flows naturally. You are unaware of differences in sex, you
yourself as a part of the whole are both male and female, positive and
negative, electron and proton. Man趴oman love moves to you and from you,
parent苞hild貞ibling虹dol and idyll and ideal苔ll interplay in soft
waves about you, in you, and through you. You are in perfect balance
because you are where you belong. You are Home.
Within all of this, yet not a part of it, you are aware of the source of
the entire span of your experience, of you, of the vastness beyond your
ability to perceive and/or imagine. Here, you know and easily accept the
existence of the Father. Your true Father. The Father, the Creator of
all that is or was. You are one of His countless creations. How or why,
you do not know. This is not important. You are happy simply because you
are in your Right Place, where you truly belong.
Each of the three times I went There, I did not return voluntarily. I
came back sadly, reluctantly. Someone helped me return. Each time after
I returned, I suffered intense nostalgia and loneliness for days. I felt
as an alien might among strangers in a land where things were not
"right," where everything and everyone was so different and so "wrong"
when compared with where you belonged. Acute loneliness, nostalgia, and
something akin to homesickness. So great was it that I have not tried to
go There again.
Was this heaven?
Once I tried to simulate There, on this world. I remembered as a child
swimming in a pool that had underwater deep虐ued colored lights set in
the walls. I remembered specifically which pool had featured such
lights.
Our country home had a swimming pool, so I set to work. We installed
underwater lights, and I used color on the lights. Try as I might, I
couldn't get the deep hues I remembered. Too much power was required.
Also, we put in an underwater speaker so that you could lie in the
water, with your ears submerged, and listen to music from the system in
the house. This worked quite well. But it was not There, or close to it.
There was one peculiar item. Upon visiting the site of my childhood, the
pool I remembered was there, but it did not have colored lights under
the water. No one, including old friends who swam with me in the pool,
could remember this pool as ever having colored lights under the water.
Reality, Reality!

9.
ANGELS AND ARCHETYPES
One of the greatest enigmas of this whole affair is that someone觔r
more than one虐as been helping me from time to time in such
experimentation. Perhaps they are with me every time, and I am just not
aware of them. I do not know who these helpers are or why they are
helping me.
They certainly do not seem to be guardian angels, although a more
conventionally oriented personality might so interpret them. They do not
always respond when I need help, nor are they always responsive to
prayer. Mental anguish and screaming have sometimes brought one of them.
More often, they help me when I do not ask for help觔r again, when I am
not aware of asking. Their assistance seems to be more of their choosing
and deliberation than mine.
They are rarely "friendly" in the sense that we understand the term. Yet
there is a definite sense of understanding, knowledge, and
purposefulness in their actions toward me. I feel no intent on their
part to bring harm to me and I trust
their directions.
Much of the help has been subtly applied. For example, the "hands" that
boosted me up the hill to Dr. Bradshaw's house were obviously helping me
to achieve what I desired. I did not see who was assisting me. However,
just prior to the assistance, I saw someone sitting yoga苯ashion, with
robes and headpiece. Was this the "helper"?
In Chapter 10, the robed man with the hauntingly familiar eyes and face
who responded to my anguished plea when I was trying to rid myself of
the "parasites" paid little attention to my emotional distress. Yet he
had obviously come to help. He came as a result of my problem. Still, he
offered no words of comfort, nor did he attempt to calm or reassure me.
I never saw the helper who took me on the voyage to visit Dr. Gordon in
Locale II. I felt his hands and heard his voice, no more. The same
applied to the helper who, a week later, commented that I had already
made the trip when I attempted to do so again. There is some inherent
acceptance of the assistance without question. Rarely has it occurred to
me at the time to turn and identify the helper. It seems a rather
natural thing.
The two young men who took me to the apartment after the seance meeting
do not seem to fit into the typical category here. There was a definite
sense that they came for that particular purpose and nothing else. This
brings up the next peculiarity. Of all the helpers from whom I have
obtained some repeatable identification, only one have I been able to
identify a second time.
In my visit to Agnew Bahnson in Locale II, someone held me in position
to see him. The feeling of gentle but firm hands on each side of me was
very strong. The same hands, turning me around to leave, much as one
steers a blind person, could not have been more vivid. It was another
case of a helper responding to a specific desire on my part.
When I panicked, screamed, and prayed against the barrier on my way
back, no help came. When I was being teased and tormented by the
entities, no help came. When I was attacked by the beings so savagely,
no help came. More accurately, if it did, I was not aware of it What is
the difference? How do "they" decide when to help, and when to leave me
alone? I don't know.
Most of all, who quietly insisted that I return to the physical when I
drifted in that seemingly eternal bliss? I don't know whether to be
grateful or sad for that particular help.
I don't classify the "host" (Chapter 12) as one of the same helpers, yet
he may well have been. He is one of those whom I would have no
difficulty recognizing if I saw again. He was different in that I did

get an impression of warm friendliness and comradeship, but he was in
some manner not quite the same as I觔lder, knowledgeable in another
field. He was different in that he came forward and offered his help.
This was one of the few times that the option was mine.
Strangely, the other times I needed help badly, none appeared苟.g., the
wild experiences of seeming to be in someone else's physical body
(Chapter 12). On the surface, this would appear to have been a most
serious situation demanding immediate aid. The notes show no indication
whatsoever of anything other than extrication through my own efforts.
There is no evident pattern as yet.
Here are several of the many other reports in the notes that may
illustrate some hidden points about the helpers.
9/14/58
Early evening, on the porch, into relaxation system. Immediate high
frequency vibration. Experimented flipping in and out of the physical.
On one, had difficulty in re苟ntering. Two hands took my hips and rolled
me into proper position. I mentally sent my thanks, but didn't know who
it was.
3/18/62 Afternoon
E.W. was visiting us, and we both decided to rest before dinner, about
five in the afternoon. We went into adjoining rooms. Almost immediately
after I lay down, I heard voices, and it sounded as if E.W. was
discussing something with someone else. At the time, I thought I was
hearing him physically talking to the other person in the hatt outside
the door. (E.W. reported he went immediately to sleep, did not speak
with anyone prior, and has no recollection of the event at all.)
Immediately after hearing this muffled conversation, I lifted out of my
body, and a voice spoke almost over my shoulder.
"If you feel you must know, I guess we'll have to tell you."
With this, someone took me by the arm, and I went along willingly. We
traveled what seemed a long distance and ended up in a darkened house.
My distinct impression was that it was a club, fraternity, or similar
headquarters. There were quiet people in a room to the right, and I
seemed to know there were other people far upstairs somewhere.
As I stood there waiting, what looked like a 16mm. film projector
started, and I saw a white light frame on a wall or screen, much the
same shape as a motion picture. In handwriting, black on the white, was
this message:
For pure psychic results, take
six drops of a chemical in
a glass of water.
I became excited at this, and moved over to the projector to try and
reverse it to read the message again so that I could be positive that I
had read it correctly. I kept fumbling for the reverse switch, but was
unable to find it. (The picture had gone by this time.) I then saw what
looked like film unwinding on the floor, and I thought I had broken the
mechanism by tampering with it. This made me nervous, and I headed back
for my body to avoid trouble, returned, and re苟ntered easily.
5/3/60 Afternoon
I lay there, fully conscious, vibrations speeded up to nothing but
warmth sensation, eyes closed. I was about to lift out when two hands
held a book in front of my closed eyes. The book was riffled, turned
around on all sides so that I could see that it was a book. The book was
then opened, and I started to read. The gist of what I read was that in
order willfully to bring back a condition, it was necessary to recreate
the feeling of a similar experience that had occurred in the past (i.e.,
was a part of your memory). I took this to mean that one should think of

the "feeling," rather than the details of the incident. Several
illustrations were given, then gradually the book went out of focus as
the vibrations faded, and try as I might, I could not continue reading.
Finally, I sat up physically and made notes.
3/9/59 Night
As I lay there with the vibrations strong in the dark, the special black
darkness I could "see" with my closed eyes, the darkness grew brighter
in one spot, as if clouds were parting, rotting back, and unfurling, and
finally a white ray of light came through from somewhere above my head.
(I could still hear the noises of family activity in the house and was
still completely aware of time貞pace. I was still home and completely
conscious.)
I became excited, but managed to keep in stasis. A small mountain peak
seemed to grow in the center of the white ray, just where it hit the
clouds. I gathered courage, and asked for the fundamental answer to my
basic questions. I don't know why I did, but it seemed to be what I
should do. A rich, deep voice軌et not a voice, and certainly not my con
scious mind, as I was waiting expectantly苔nswered.
"Are you sure you do want to know?" It came more from the light ray.
I replied that I was sure.
"Are you strong enough to take the true answers?" There was little
inflection and no emotion in the delivery.
I replied that I thought I was. I waited and it seemed a long long time
before the voice spoke again.
"Ask your father to tell you of the great secret."
I started to ask exactly what was meant, but one of the family came up
the stairs noisily and switched on the light in the hall outside my
room. With the click of the light, the white ray of light faded slowly,
no matter how hard I tried to make it stay, and the clouds went from
gray to black. When the clouds had faded completely, I opened my eyes.
(There was absolutely no transition from "vision" to sleeping to waking.
I had been awake as we define it, from all indications, throughout the
period.) It was indeed a moving experience, but not classified as out
of苑ody.
Since then, I have explored this in two directions. I have tried to re
create the experience without success. Second, I wrote to my physical
father, who was still alive and very interested in these events. I posed
the question without giving him the source. He wrote back an elusive
answer, stating that there were perhaps a half虐undred, and asking which
one I wanted. The other "father" has yet to give me the answer either.
3/15/59 Night
In trying to follow up, here is what took place. As I lay down in the
relaxing procedure, I mentally repeated the words, "Father, guide me.
Father, tell me the great secret." After several minutes, there was a
sudden blackout, and I was standing in a room with a high苑eamed
ceiling. I left the house and started across a platform to some kind of
waiting conveyance (like a train), then stopped and turned. Someone had
called to me.
A tall, thin, rather dark貞kinned woman in a long, straight dress or
robe stood almost beside me. My first impression was that she was Negro
with small and even features, dark straight hair, and evenly cut bangs
across the forehead. (In retrospect, I realize from the description, she
could have been Middle Eastern or Egyptian, but not oriental, as I would
have noticed the eye structure.)
She told me that I had done something wrong, the implication being in a
wrong manner rather than evil. I asked her what it was, and she said she
would show me. With that, we started to move, and walked around the
corner of a large building. We stepped into a large paved courtyard. We

stopped, and it was exactly as if we were watching a three苓imensional
life貞ized motion picture in full color.
A group of people was standing to the left, and they gave the impression
of authority. To the right, lying in the courtyard, was a small, dark
haired girl who looked about twelve or thirteen years old. She seemed
bound, or helpless in some way. I was in the scene, and I was
simultaneously standing beside the woman watching. I could sense every
action of the "I" in the scene, every emotion.
The men of authority told the "I" in the scene that he must perform
certain harmful functions on the girl. He felt that he shouldn't do
this, and the girl pleaded with him not to. He turned back to the
authorities, to avoid carrying out their orders. The authorities were
very casual about the whole affair, especially the girl's tears. They
stated that if he did not perform the function (religious?), others were
arriving soon and they would do it instead. They added that it would be
better for the girl if he performed this act instead of the others, that
it would be less harmful to the girl.
Reluctantly, the "I" in the scene turned and followed out the orders of
the authorities. A few moments later, the woman led me out of the
courtyard and we stood on the platform again. (I lost contact with the
"I" in the scene the moment we turned away.)
"Now do you understand?" she asked.
I dazedly stated that I did not, and she looked at me steadily, rather
sadly, and turned away. Not knowing what to do, I thought of the
physical, took a long time getting back, and finally re苟ntered. I sat
up and thought about this one for a long time. Who was the woman? What
was the great secret? Looking at my own life history here, I am
beginning to know.
8/18/61 Afternoon
The hands and the book again. This time, in the office. Three in the
afternoon, rainy, humid weather, if that has meaning. Vibrations were
present, completely conscious and awake. I checked and tested by opening
my physical eyes several times and looking at the clock. Time passage
was as it felt it should be.
Again, the hands placed the book before my closed eyes. The book was
turned over, riffled, and held in many positions in very obvious
movements to make sure I recognized it as a book. I thought of trying to
see the title on the end of the book, and promptly the end was held for
me to see, but the print was too small, or I was too myopic. Try as I
might, I could not read it.
Finally, I gave up, and the book was opened and I saw both printed
pages. Again, I tried to read it, but it was just out of focus. Finally,
I mentally suggested that I might be able to read it if I took one
letter at a time. In response, a letter jumped out of a line and I just
barely saw it as it flew by. I checked and rechecked carefully and
laboriously, and got four words: "Evoke unhappy beings by ..." I tried
and tried to read more, but evidently I concentrated too hard, as it
only became more difficult. I noticed the large white billowy clouds
overhead, and this distracted me. The rain had stopped. It was clearing.
I wanted to go out and soar up among the mountains and valleys in the
sky. With this, I started to lift out slowly.
The hands closed the book, took it away, and a tolerant, amused, and
friendly thought sprung into my mind: "Well, if the soaring is that
good, go to it." It was as if a teacher had given up, for the moment,
trying to keep the attention of a child too restless to concentrate.
I soared out through the door, up into the sky, had a wonderful time
among the clouds, and returned without incident. (The clouds truly were
there after I sat up physically, just as I had experienced them,
although it had been cloudy when I started the experiment.)

Someday, perhaps, the helpers will identify themselves. I suspect that
the answer may be surprising.

10. INTELLIGENT ANIMALS
Throughout man's history, the reports have been consistent. There are
demons, spirits, goblins, gremlins, and assorted subhuman entities
always hanging around humanity to make life miserable. Are these myths?
Hallucinations? For once, suppose we don't dismiss the topic before we
take a good long look. Perhaps all such things do originate in the
imagination. The question is, from what source does the imagination con
jure up these beings? The following excerpts from the notes offer
several possibilities.
4/18/60 Morning
I lay down on the couch around ten, and started fractional relaxation.
The room was bright in morning daylight. Halfway through the second time
around, the vibrations started. After a moment of "tuning" (with my
jaw), I opened my physical eyes to see if the vibrations would continue.
They did. With physical eyes open, I decided to try and "lift out" to
see what happened to my vision. The clock was in full view. My time
orientation was normal, according to the second hand. I was just about
eight inches over the physical when I saw a movement out of the corner
of my eye. Walking up beside my body was a human苔ppearing body (I could
see only the lower half with my head in the position on its side, by
turning my eyes to the right). It was nude, no clothes, and male. He
seemed in size to be about ten years old, some three feet tall, thin
legs, little pubic hair, undeveloped
genitals.
Calmly, as if it were a daily occurrence衍ike a boy swinging onto his
favorite horse虐e swung a leg over my back and climbed on me. I could
feel his legs around my waist, his small body pressed against my back. I
was so completely surprised that it didn't occur to me to be afraid
(perhaps his size had something to do with that)! I waited rigidly, and
by rolling my eyes to the right, I could see his right leg hanging over
my body, less than two feet away. It looked like a perfectly normal ten
year觔ld boy's leg.
I was still hovering just out of the physical, and cautiously wondered
who and what this was. "He" seemed completely unaware that I knew of his
presence, or if he was, he didn't care. I felt that I didn't want to
confront whoever he was in an environment where he was obviously more at
home than I, so I retreated quickly back into my physical body, cut down
the vibrations, and started to write these notes.
I don't know what it was. I realized that I simply didn't have the
courage to turn around and get a good look at "him" (if I could have).
It was certainly humanoid in form, but upon reflection, it didn't have
the feeling of human intelligence. It (he) seemed more animal, or
somewhere in between. I felt insulted at the complete assurance with
which he came over and climbed on my back. He seemed confident that he
would not be detected, perhaps through long association with humans to
whom he was invisible. If it was a hallucination, that's very real
imagining虹n broad daylight, with the second hand of the clock sweeping,
and with two senses reporting.
4/28/60 Night
About seven負hirty in the office, I went through the count觔ut procedure
and the vibrations came in nicely. I started out carefully苔nd felt
something climb on my back! I remembered the little fellow from before,
and certainly didn't want to try to go somewhere with him hanging on my
back. I let the vibrations continue, and reached down my side to get
hold of his leg, not sure that my non計hysical hands wouldn't go right
through it. I was quite surprised when my hands did touch something! The
consistency felt much like flesh, normally body趴arm, and somewhat
rubbery; it seemed to stretch.






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